What do Sky do that makes them so strong? non-doping thread
whiteboytrash
Posts: 594
Let's turn around the discussion in to something more positive.
We hear of marginal gains etc. and training at altitude etc.
I understand that some here have links to BC so maybe some insider input.
So I'd like to understand without talking about doping etc. why Sky are so strong over other teams in 1 week to GT styled races.
In terms of doping I'd prefer not to discuss but I hear that Sky have a "strict anti-doping policy" - what is this policy and what is is contents?
I look forward to leaning how they train differently than other teams etc. or details on what makes them a big success.
What is the secret behind their successes?
We hear of marginal gains etc. and training at altitude etc.
I understand that some here have links to BC so maybe some insider input.
So I'd like to understand without talking about doping etc. why Sky are so strong over other teams in 1 week to GT styled races.
In terms of doping I'd prefer not to discuss but I hear that Sky have a "strict anti-doping policy" - what is this policy and what is is contents?
I look forward to leaning how they train differently than other teams etc. or details on what makes them a big success.
What is the secret behind their successes?
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Comments
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1) Money. They pay very good wages to very good riders, chosen to be workhorses for the team. BMC may lay out more, but not on their domestiques.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
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1. Budget
2. Methods
3. Pillows
4. DB
5. Helicopters
6. Power meters
7. Bodysuits
8. Washing machines on the bus
QED.0 -
Timing“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Joelsim wrote:1. Budget
2. Methods
3. Pillows
4. DB
5. Helicopters
6. Power meters
7. Bodysuits
8. Washing machines on the bus
QED.
I've heard about the pillows. Sky use Technogel. They were actually used by Cofidis and Liquigas before Sky.Technogel from Italy are one of these companies. The Cofidis and Liquigas teams use their pillows, but they also have a deeper link with cycling. If the name sounds familiar, it’s because Fi'zi:k use Technogel materials in their saddles and for parts like aero bar elbow pads. In fact, Technogel are an offshoot of Fi'zi:k’s parent company Selle Royal, one of Europe’s biggest saddle makers. The eponymous shape-memory polyurethane gel was developed with German plastics giants Bayer Material Science and is used in Fi'zi:k’s Arione K1 saddle, among others.
Can you elaborate on "Methods" ? and "power meters"?0 -
Here we go....0
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whiteboytrash wrote:Joelsim wrote:1. Budget
2. Methods
3. Pillows
4. DB
5. Helicopters
6. Power meters
7. Bodysuits
8. Washing machines on the bus
QED.
I've heard about the pillows. Sky use Tecnogel. They were actually used by Cofidis and Liquigas before Sky.Technogel from Italy are one of these companies. The Cofidis and Liquigas teams use their pillows, but they also have a deeper link with cycling. If the name sounds familiar, it’s because Fi'zi:k use Technogel materials in their saddles and for parts like aero bar elbow pads. In fact, Technogel are an offshoot of Fi'zi:k’s parent company Selle Royal, one of Europe’s biggest saddle makers. The eponymous shape-memory polyurethane gel was developed with German plastics giants Bayer Material Science and is used in Fi'zi:k’s Arione K1 saddle, among others.
Can you elaborate on "Methods" ? and "power meters"?
Are you suggesting that whatever Sky do it must be unique? That seems to be the very clear insinuation.
Besides which, joelsim was taking the piss.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Joelsim wrote:1. Budget
2. Methods
3. Pillows
4. DB
5. Helicopters
6. Power meters
7. Bodysuits
8. Washing machines on the bus
QED.
I've heard about the pillows. Sky use Tecnogel. They were actually used by Cofidis and Liquigas before Sky.Technogel from Italy are one of these companies. The Cofidis and Liquigas teams use their pillows, but they also have a deeper link with cycling. If the name sounds familiar, it’s because Fi'zi:k use Technogel materials in their saddles and for parts like aero bar elbow pads. In fact, Technogel are an offshoot of Fi'zi:k’s parent company Selle Royal, one of Europe’s biggest saddle makers. The eponymous shape-memory polyurethane gel was developed with German plastics giants Bayer Material Science and is used in Fi'zi:k’s Arione K1 saddle, among others.
Can you elaborate on "Methods" ? and "power meters"?
Are you suggesting that whatever Sky do it must be unique? That seems to be the very clear insinuation.
Besides which, joelsim was taking the wee-wee.
I'd just like to know without talking about doping.
What makes them tick and so strong? Perhaps all teams do the same but they just do it better?
But what is that better? I'd like to learn and understand.0 -
Basically: Recruitment and Training
Here are the steps
1. Make sure the team leader is a top notch time triallist. No-one can help him in the TT. Wiggins, Froome & Porte are arguably the best three time triallists of GC riders.
2. Pay goods wages to stock pile a certain type of rider: those that have been top 20 in a Grand Tour, but never close to the top 5, and climb at a steady pace. Rogers, Kiryienka, Siutsou, Cataldo, Lopez, Zandio, Nieve, Deignan, Knees. And that's before we mention Henao & Uran or Thomas & Kennaugh.
3. Have a deep squad so riders aren't overworked.
4. Constantly monitor and adjust training on a day-to-day basis using data and coaches who know what to do with it.
5. Run training camps where specific race scenarios suited to the team leader are practised.
6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
This only works for stage races with significant time trialling, but that's really all they are the best at. They're fairly average at most other things.Twitter: @RichN950 -
whiteboytrash wrote:What makes them tick and so strong? Perhaps all teams do the same but they just do it better?
But what is that better? I'd like to learn and understand.
Pardon me if I doubt your sincerity. We only reached two responses to your original question and you were already pointing out the non-unique nature of one of the (facetious) suggestions, as if anyone actually thought that choice of pillow was the decisive factor in winning two Tour de Frances.
There is absolutely no way that you haven't been through all the commonly stated reasons already, and found your own counter-argument for each of them. I've already seen you doing it on other threads.
You know full well that any truly revolutionary training plan is going to be a trade secret, and not leaked on public forum.
You didn't post your question because you wish to be educated, you posted it because you wished to "educate" others. You opened this thread with the express purpose of disabusing the poor deluded Sky fanboy fools of their received wisdom, or at least kicking off another huge scrap if that didn't work.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
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Currently reading Wiggo's autobiagraphy. Methods raised there are:
- train specifically and don't rely on races to help training
- train as a team all year rather than squad rotation coming together for the big Tour
- All riders in the Tour team train together
- Play to strengths; e.g. Wiggo is good TT rider so TT up mountains rather than wait and react to Contador's bursts.0 -
RichN95 wrote:6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
They should have taken some of those guys to the Tour
Also, take Froome out of Sky and they don't look so strong....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
They cool down, totally a new approach.
So new, my games teacher was ahead of his time 17 years ago0 -
Macaloon wrote:Also, take Froome out of Sky and they don't look so strong.
They'd still have the classics season.
Oh.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
izza wrote:Currently reading Wiggo's autobiagraphy. Methods raised there are:
- train specifically and don't rely on races to help training
- train as a team all year rather than squad rotation coming together for the big Tour
- All riders in the Tour team train together
- Play to strengths; e.g. Wiggo is good TT rider so TT up mountains rather than wait and react to Contador's bursts.
I agree. The train together is a big one. Cycling teams aren't like football. Football teams spend an entire year together - training and playing.
Years gone by in cycling they'd be a training camp in January and then riders may cross paths during the year then meet up 3 days before the Tour! I don't disagree what Sky did in 2012. Having a core group based in Spain all year helped. A lot. Each rider knew what they had to do individually.
Per final point Contador wasn't at the 2012 Tour but I still get the point you make.
Cannodale have a very good team unity also. Since around 2010.0 -
MartinGT wrote:They cool down, totally a new approach.
So new, my games teacher was ahead of his time 17 years ago
If your games teacher had been putting riders on rollers before and after a stage, then yes, he would have been.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
RichN95 wrote:Basically: Recruitment and Training
Here are the steps
1. Make sure the team leader is a top notch time triallist. No-one can help him in the TT. Wiggins, Froome & Porte are arguably the best three time triallists of GC riders.
2. Pay goods wages to stock pile a certain type of rider: those that have been top 20 in a Grand Tour, but never close to the top 5, and climb at a steady pace. Rogers, Kiryienka, Siutsou, Cataldo, Lopez, Zandio, Nieve, Deignan, Knees. And that's before we mention Henao & Uran or Thomas & Kennaugh.
3. Have a deep squad so riders aren't overworked.
4. Constantly monitor and adjust training on a day-to-day basis using data and coaches who know what to do with it.
5. Run training camps where specific race scenarios suited to the team leader are practised.
6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
This only works for stage races with significant time trialling, but that's really all they are the best at. They're fairly average at most other things.
Except for Dr's or back room staff eh0 -
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The secret of their successes, young Grasshopper, is this:
"There is no one at Sky who knows much about bike riding"0 -
RichN95 wrote:Basically: Recruitment and Training
Here are the steps
1. Make sure the team leader is a top notch time triallist. No-one can help him in the TT. Wiggins, Froome & Porte are arguably the best three time triallists of GC riders.
Wiggins has always been a decent TT'r during the recruitment process you tallk of, when did they see Froome Dawg as this Awesome TTr and GC rider? He was almost about to loose his ride from Sky before his out of the world ride at the Vuelta '11
Porte, he has always shown potential as a TT'r
2. Pay goods wages to stock pile a certain type of rider: those that have been top 20 in a Grand Tour, but never close to the top 5, and climb at a steady pace. Rogers, Kiryienka, Siutsou, Cataldo, Lopez, Zandio, Nieve, Deignan, Knees. And that's before we mention Henao & Uran or Thomas & Kennaugh.
Sky have a very large budget, but then again so do BMC, Astana and Garmin. Climb at a steady pace, haha, you mean smash out stupid numbers for long periods.
Did you know Rogers said that his time at Sky he was putting out better numbers than ever in his career. At the age of 32 to get an improvement of 1% at his level is massive, but from what he said it was closer to 5%! Oh and look what happened late last year.
3. Have a deep squad so riders aren't overworked.
Who says the other times are over worked?
4. Constantly monitor and adjust training on a day-to-day basis using data and coaches who know what to do with it.
Aye because no other team in the Peloton do that
5. Run training camps where specific race scenarios suited to the team leader are practised.
Again, no other team does this? Come on for christ sake, how do you think HTC got so successful with their leadout train? etc
What you mean is, SKy train on Mt Teide as its at altitude
6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
They sit on the front smacking out wattages. I do remember Brailsfraud or someone saying that clean riders cant put in multiple attacks or jump away from the peloton. Something Froome has done SEVERAL times last season alone
This only works for stage races with significant time trialling, but that's really all they are the best at. They're fairly average at most other things.
Ok my opinion in red then sir.0 -
It's not what Sky do, it's what the others don't do.
TWH, had it in one word: Timing:-Of everything.
So much detail in that one word.
They still don't light my fire, though."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
MartinGT wrote:Brailsfraud
Opinion invalidated by childish and petty name-calling. IMO.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
RichN95 wrote:Basically: Recruitment and Training
Here are the steps
1. Make sure the team leader is a top notch time triallist. No-one can help him in the TT. Wiggins, Froome & Porte are arguably the best three time triallists of GC riders.
2. Pay goods wages to stock pile a certain type of rider: those that have been top 20 in a Grand Tour, but never close to the top 5, and climb at a steady pace. Rogers, Kiryienka, Siutsou, Cataldo, Lopez, Zandio, Nieve, Deignan, Knees. And that's before we mention Henao & Uran or Thomas & Kennaugh.
3. Have a deep squad so riders aren't overworked.
4. Constantly monitor and adjust training on a day-to-day basis using data and coaches who know what to do with it.
5. Run training camps where specific race scenarios suited to the team leader are practised.
6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
This only works for stage races with significant time trialling, but that's really all they are the best at. They're fairly average at most other things.
Plus a load of other very small things.
All of these techniques may be (or have been) employed by other teams to one degree or another. IMHO Sky's master stroke is making sure they combine all of them together.
Marginal gains is no secret - It is both a simple and genius concept. You can do it yourself - think about the last time you went out on your bike, it took ages to get ready right?
- Your bib shorts were inside out
- You couldn't find that other glove
- The Garmin was upstairs charging instead of being already attached to the bike
- You had to move those boxes in order to get out of the garage
etc etc
Correcting any one of these things would make a tiny difference in your departure time, correcting them all and you start to become more efficient.0 -
MartinGT wrote:Wiggins has always been a decent TT'r during the recruitment process you tallk of, when did they see Froome Dawg as this Awesome TTr and GC rider? He was almost about to loose his ride from Sky before his out of the world ride at the Vuelta '11
Porte, he has always shown potential as a TT'rMartinGT wrote:Sky have a very large budget, but then again so do BMC, Astana and Garmin. Climb at a steady pace, haha, you mean smash out stupid numbers for long periods.
Did you know Rogers said that his time at Sky he was putting out better numbers than ever in his career. At the age of 32 to get an improvement of 1% at his level is massive, but from what he said it was closer to 5%! Oh and look what happened late last year.MartinGT wrote:Who says the other teams are over worked?
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/St ... ?year=2013MartinGT wrote:Aye because no other team in the Peloton do thatMartinGT wrote:Again, no other team does this? Come on for christ sake, how do you think HTC got so successful with their leadout train? etcMartinGT wrote:They sit on the front smacking out wattages. I do remember Brailsfraud or someone saying that clean riders cant put in multiple attacks or jump away from the peloton. Something Froome has done SEVERAL times last season alone
When has he done multiple attacks? You might argue for Ventoux, but that was an attack to bridge across to Quintana, followed by another quite some time later on a rider who been on a long attack himself.Twitter: @RichN950 -
MartinGT wrote:RichN95 wrote:Basically: Recruitment and Training
Here are the steps
1. Make sure the team leader is a top notch time triallist. No-one can help him in the TT. Wiggins, Froome & Porte are arguably the best three time triallists of GC riders.
Wiggins has always been a decent TT'r during the recruitment process you tallk of, when did they see Froome Dawg as this Awesome TTr and GC rider? He was almost about to loose his ride from Sky before his out of the world ride at the Vuelta '11
Porte, he has always shown potential as a TT'r
2. Pay goods wages to stock pile a certain type of rider: those that have been top 20 in a Grand Tour, but never close to the top 5, and climb at a steady pace. Rogers, Kiryienka, Siutsou, Cataldo, Lopez, Zandio, Nieve, Deignan, Knees. And that's before we mention Henao & Uran or Thomas & Kennaugh.
Sky have a very large budget, but then again so do BMC, Astana and Garmin. Climb at a steady pace, haha, you mean smash out stupid numbers for long periods.
Did you know Rogers said that his time at Sky he was putting out better numbers than ever in his career. At the age of 32 to get an improvement of 1% at his level is massive, but from what he said it was closer to 5%! Oh and look what happened late last year.
Garmin? Who's manager said:
@UCI_Overlord not sure why ppl are surprised by sky:a few €800k guys pulling a €900k guy, who then pulls for a €1.3m guy,who helps a €2m guy
3. Have a deep squad so riders aren't overworked.
Who says the other times are over worked?
4. Constantly monitor and adjust training on a day-to-day basis using data and coaches who know what to do with it.
Aye because no other team in the Peloton do that
5. Run training camps where specific race scenarios suited to the team leader are practised.
Again, no other team does this? Come on for christ sake, how do you think HTC got so successful with their leadout train? etc
What you mean is, SKy train on Mt Teide as its at altitude
6. Use the stockpile of climbers to control the race and bring about the scenario they have trained for so they can execute their drills. Be used to controlling and do it so frequently that other teams become conditioned to not just let you do it but expect you to do it.
They sit on the front smacking out wattages. I do remember Brailsfraud or someone saying that clean riders cant put in multiple attacks or jump away from the peloton. Something Froome has done SEVERAL times last season alone
This only works for stage races with significant time trialling, but that's really all they are the best at. They're fairly average at most other things.
Ok my opinion in red then sir.0 -
RichN95 wrote:MartinGT wrote:Wiggins has always been a decent TT'r during the recruitment process you tallk of, when did they see Froome Dawg as this Awesome TTr and GC rider? He was almost about to loose his ride from Sky before his out of the world ride at the Vuelta '11
Porte, he has always shown potential as a TT'rMartinGT wrote:Sky have a very large budget, but then again so do BMC, Astana and Garmin. Climb at a steady pace, haha, you mean smash out stupid numbers for long periods.
Did you know Rogers said that his time at Sky he was putting out better numbers than ever in his career. At the age of 32 to get an improvement of 1% at his level is massive, but from what he said it was closer to 5%! Oh and look what happened late last year.MartinGT wrote:Who says the other teams are over worked?
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/St ... ?year=2013MartinGT wrote:Aye because no other team in the Peloton do thatMartinGT wrote:Again, no other team does this? Come on for christ sake, how do you think HTC got so successful with their leadout train? etc
although, how many GTs did HTC win, remind me?MartinGT wrote:They sit on the front smacking out wattages. I do remember Brailsfraud or someone saying that clean riders cant put in multiple attacks or jump away from the peloton. Something Froome has done SEVERAL times last season alone
When has he done multiple attacks? You might argue for Ventoux, but that was an attack to bridge across to Quintana, followed by another quite some time later on a rider who been on a long attack himself.0 -
Hire the strongest riders?
EBH, Porte, Flecha & Cav aside they've hired capable riders, on par with Cervelo TT ... As the OP asked (and I was ridiculed for the same a few months back) was what made these guys (esp. Wiggins/Froome) into world beaters ... Wiggins was a winner but in a very different arena (literally) ... Other than those I mentioned ... Well, on any other team???0 -
Crankbrother wrote:Hire the strongest riders?
EBH, Porte, Flecha & Cav aside they've hired capable riders, on par with Cervelo TT
As I've said, Sky have a 'type' - riders who are have finished in the top 20 in a GT and can reach the final climb and ride at a high tempo for a given period of time.
"I picked the best team, but not necessarily the best players" - Marcelo Lippi on how he won the 2006 World Cup.Twitter: @RichN950
This discussion has been closed.