What do Sky do that makes them so strong? non-doping thread

Crankbrother

A few folks have tried to have a sensible discussion ... So far all we have is that the sum of the parts is bigger than the individuals involved ... Someone gave a good list of WT placings to back that up ...

Sad thing is that the team that cited transparency as a main objective won't tell us how the stage race domination is achieved other than vague platitudes ... Some think that it would be stupid for SKY to say how it is achieved, I believe it would be best for there to be less secrets in cycling given the current state of things ... But then I am niaive, or as some would term it gullible

tailwindhome

Crankbrother wrote:

Sad thing is that the team that cited transparency as a main objective won't tell us how the stage race domination is achieved other than vague platitudes ... Some think that it would be stupid for SKY to say how it is achieved, I believe it would be best for there to be less secrets in cycling given the current state of things ... But then I am niaive, or as some would term it gullible

Do you genuinely not see the absurdity of the question you ask?

Why have Manchester United been so dominant in the premiership for the last 20 years. The answers are pretty much the same.

It's the same in any sport. It's not really a secret. It's a combination of having a the right plan, recruiting for the plan, sticking to the plan, having the resources to action the plan and have circumstances fall your way.

There is no ONE thing Sky do that other teams don't do.

Sometimes, some teams are just better than others and dominate for a period of time

That's the nature of sport and especially team sport.

In fact even IF Sky were to admit doping tomorrow. That still wouldn't answer your question.

Armstrong/US Postal didn't win 7 Tours because they doped. They won 7 Tours because they doped and did 1000 other things right.

That's sport.

rayjay

Brailsford has said on many occasions that Sky work harder and marginal gains etc.

Armstrong and Postal used to make sure they had every area covered. Plenty of recon's etc. So it's not new.

I just don't believe that going up a mountain a few extra times his what makes Froome a better climber.

I know they sat they practice on the climbs , so do the other teams.

It's just stupid to think that Contador , Quintana are not busting their balls as well.

Having a nice shower in the bus and a fluffy pillow is not going to help you go faster.

Whatever they are doing and IMO they are doing something, legal or not, they sure are not going to tell anyone.

Anonymous

rayjay wrote:

a fluffy pillow is not going to help you go faster.

It could though, imagine you could have the same matress to sleep on every night, one which has been specifically picked for you and you are used to sleeping on, instead of 21 different ones. some may be soft, to hard etc. In Weegilus's book he said at a race one he had a bed that had a huge nail sticking through it and he had to sleep on the floor. I'm no expert but I imagine he didn't feel to fresh the day after. which means he isn't as well rested, thus affecting his performance the next day.

ddraver

Brailsford has said on many occasions that Sky work harder and marginal gains etc.

Armstrong and Postal used to make sure they had every area covered. Plenty of recon's etc. So it's not new.

Why is nt every team doing it then?

I just don't believe that going up a mountain a few extra times his what makes Froome a better climber.

Depends how you go up it

I know they sat they practice on the climbs , so do the other teams.

No they don't and certainly not as a team. if you imagine a football team that only ever rode together for the one game a year do you think they'd be as successful?

It's just stupid to think that Contador , Quintana are not busting their balls as well.

Irrelevant, all that matters is how fast they go whilst busting their balls

Having a nice shower in the bus and a fluffy pillow is not going to help you go faster.

see above

Whatever they are doing and IMO they are doing something, legal or not, they sure are not going to tell anyone.


Nope, why would/should they?

As I said on page 1 they are not doing anything special, anything secret or anything illegal. They re just doing all the little things that other teams are nt doing

Why don't the other teams do it?

Good flipping question ddraver...

Jez mon

Why don't the other teams do all those things...my guess is because they take the same view as rayjay does with the pillows...on their own, they aren't going to get you winning the tour, so why bother.

inseine

frenchfighter wrote:

I have no idea why these threads go on for so long talking drivel and stupid back and forth BS including from people who should no better. There is nothing really Pro Race about it. Go and talk about this in the cake stop if you want to argue like little kids or better still contribute to the tons of other threads on here or start your own thread on something interesting.

Well said.

blazing_saddles

Another thing to consider is that if Sky hadn't won with Froome, the winner would have been a 22 YO Tour virgin in his 2nd season at WT level.
An exceptional talent, maybe, but what does it say about the rest?

Crankbrother

sjmclean wrote:

rayjay wrote:

a fluffy pillow is not going to help you go faster.

It could though, imagine you could have the same matress to sleep on every night, one which has been specifically picked for you and you are used to sleeping on, instead of 21 different ones. some may be soft, to hard etc. In Weegilus's book he said at a race one he had a bed that had a huge nail sticking through it and he had to sleep on the floor. I'm no expert but I imagine he didn't feel to fresh the day after. which means he isn't as well rested, thus affecting his performance the next day.

Good anecdote about a domestique who was certainly no more or less talented than some of the SKY guys ...

Depends on the race and quality of hotels on offer (they're 'allocated' at the TdF I believe ... Interesting how that is 'managed' (I bet Europcar and AG2R get something decent day before bastile or a mountain stage where a break might stick)) ... So I can see how a team might want to minimise the problems when a lot of what is on offer is outwith your control ...

Starting to think we need a 'what teams don't do' thread ... Might get some better anecdotes and less tetchy responses ...

Yellow Peril

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Another thing to consider is that if Sky hadn't won with Froome, the winner would have been a 22 YO Tour virgin in his 2nd season at WT level.
An exceptional talent, maybe, but what does it say about the rest?

Now that is food for thought. Imagine the outcry at that!

Crankbrother

Yellow Peril wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Another thing to consider is that if Sky hadn't won with Froome, the winner would have been a 22 YO Tour virgin in his 2nd season at WT level.
An exceptional talent, maybe, but what does it say about the rest?

Now that is food for thought. Imagine the outcry at that!

I think that Contador & Saxo would have forced the issue more if there was a chance of the win ... But after the first mtf it was all over, esp. with Froome's TT advantage ... It might have been a bit more cut and thrust like the Vuelta's of the past few years ...

Quintana didn't have to fight any tactics to get 2nd ... and Movistar are fragile when it comes to tactics ...

rayjay

ddraver

CSC used to recon and train in the mountains as a team. Its not new. Plenty of teams split their GT riders from the rest and they train together on the mountains doing re con.

I doubt to many teams sleep with nails attacking their pillows.

I think Contador & co know exactly they need to do. Everyone knew how Sky were going to ride at the tour. they had nearly 2 years of the same tactic. You think they just ignored what sky had been doing?
They just could not handle Froome or the tactics ,more so with Wiggo's victorys.

You don't know what they are doing you are just taking the word of Brailsford.

But like I said ,if they are doing something naughty or just have something new they are never going to tell.

blazing_saddles

Crankbrother wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Another thing to consider is that if Sky hadn't won with Froome, the winner would have been a 22 YO Tour virgin in his 2nd season at WT level.
An exceptional talent, maybe, but what does it say about the rest?

Now that is food for thought. Imagine the outcry at that!

I think that Contador & Saxo would have forced the issue more if there was a chance of the win ... But after the first mtf it was all over, esp. with Froome's TT advantage ... It might have been a bit more cut and thrust like the Vuelta's of the past few years ...

Quintana didn't have to fight any tactics to get 2nd ... and Movistar are fragile when it comes to tactics ...

Indeed.
Hindsight is wonderful, but if they had used Quintana properly, as a genuine co-leader,
the situations that developed later in the race could have had a greater impact on the overall battle.

However, by highlighting the flaw in the threat posed by Movistar, doesn't that then weaken any arguement about Sky's strength?

rayjay

Froomes TT. No threat from Moviestar or anyone else.

Some one is going to have to get near to Froome in a TT or its all over for this year as well.

ddraver

rayjay wrote:

ddraver

CSC used to recon and train in the mountains as a team. Its not new. Plenty of teams split their GT riders from the rest and they train together on the mountains doing re con.

I doubt to many teams sleep with nails attacking their pillows.

I think Contador & co know exactly they need to do. Everyone knew how Sky were going to ride at the tour. they had nearly 2 years of the same tactic. You think they just ignored what sky had been doing?
They just could not handle Froome or the tactics ,more so with Wiggo's victorys.

You don't know what they are doing you are just taking the word of Brailsford.

But like I said ,if they are doing something naughty or just have something new they are never going to tell.

My apologies, I was labouring under the misapprehension that you had read an interview of a non Team Sky Person in the last 3 years. I see now that I was wrong which explains your lack of knowledge on the subject.

My bad.

Crankbrother

In reply to BS ...

In the 2013 TdF, yes ... Everyone else lost their legs, heads or both in AC's case ...

Although there have been a good few failures for SKY ... From the top of my head we've had 2 Vuelta's, Terrino 2013 and a very embarrassing Giro ... but even then the first 3 of those races would be a success to most other teams ...

rayjay

ddraver "My apologies, I was labouring under the misapprehension that you had read an interview of a non Team Sky Person in the last 3 years. I see now that I was wrong which explains your lack of knowledge on the subject"

Why would you respond in such away. I can tell you for a fact that CSC trained together.
Because I was riding up alp de huez for the first time around 2003/4 and had a chat with a couple of their riders.
We were talking about their FSA carbon cranks that they used at the time...which I thought looked pretty cool.

Nothing else I said was offensive . Just my opinion. I have as much knowledge as you do.

Just a different opinion on Sky which is what we were debating I thought

No need for you to be so rude because I disagree. What have I said that is wrong exactly?

Anonymous

rayjay wrote:

ddraver


I doubt to many teams sleep with nails attacking their pillows.

If one sentence could show your input to this forum it would be this. You go around making comments about pillows, someone gives you an example which proves you wrong and you just make some sarcastic remark and move on to your next ramble.

rayjay

sjmclean wrote:

rayjay wrote:

ddraver


I doubt to many teams sleep with nails attacking their pillows.

If one sentence could show your input to this forum it would be this. You go around making comments about pillows, someone gives you an example which proves you wrong and you just make some sarcastic remark and move on to your next ramble.

It was a joke. No offence was meant.

So you have got that wrong :oops: and then you follow up with offensive remarks that are not called for or needed.

What as got you so angry that you feel you have to jump in and have a dig at me for no reason?

Anonymous

I'm not angry rayjay, you've spent the last 3 or so pages making quips like: "pillows can't make you faster". I gave you an example of how they could possibly help performance, and instead of having this debate you claim to want you make a sarcy comment and move on. It's you all over, you rarely substantiate with hard facts. The most recent "fact" you have is that you just happened to be riding the mountain you were on. Let me question this, if they were riding it the way sky do (race conditions), how did a couple of their team have time to have a casual conversation about cranks? Doesn't strike me as racing a mountain when you are conversing with a fan.

There is no dig in my last comment, as far as I am concerned it is the hard fact of what you are like. It was the same in the Sky threads which got closed recently, you keep rabbling on about a point, someone proves you wrong (generally with sources) and you just come on to the next fabricated point you had, without ever acknowledging you mistake on the last.

shinyhelmut

Crankbrother wrote:

In reply to BS ...

In the 2013 TdF, yes ... Everyone else lost their legs, heads or both in AC's case ...

Although there have been a good few failures for SKY ... From the top of my head we've had 2 Vuelta's, Terrino 2013 and a very embarrassing Giro ... but even then the first 3 of those races would be a success to most other teams ...

That very embarrassing Giro, is that the one where they came second?

nic_77

rayjay wrote:

I can tell you for a fact that CSC trained together.

...and if you looked I'm sure you could find examples of other teams doing every single little thing that Sky do.

Now can you find me an example of another current team doing ALL of them together?
Q.E.D.

No_Ta_Doctor

The one thing they do that no other team does is use power meters. I know they're the only ones that use them because there are so many complaints about them doing so and no other team is mentioned.

ddraver

above_the_cows

To return to the bedding discussion - *groan* I know, I know, but stick with me - if anyone watched the 'Chris Froome Made in Kenya' programme, aside from the slightly nauseating Chris and Michelle go on safari scenes, there was an interesting part of Froome's video diary at the Tour where he is shown sleeping on the floor because the hotel mattress is too soft.

Now this is while the Tour is still in Corsica and maybe Sky didn't take their bedding to Corsica but still, he didn't have a special mattress in Corsica, he slept on the floor and he still won the Tour (because he was the best rider).

Anyway the show is worth watching - if you can put up with the saccharine bits - in addition because you actually see Froome with a bit of fire in his belly, showing anger albeit in an English public school boy way, but he does show his competitive side and how all the allegations of his performance were p*ssing him off.

http://www1.skysports.com/news/15264/9107948/

Richmond Racer

Drops the F bomb - twice! :shock: :shock:

Bizarrely this has warmed me to him a little. Go figure.

above_the_cows

Richmond Racer wrote:

Drops the F bomb - twice! :shock: :shock:

Bizarrely this has warmed me to him a little. Go figure.

Indeed he did (although Sky were kind enough to bleep it out for the little kiddies and the sensitive souls).

It warmed me to him too and dare I say it the Cound (shudder), she's clearly as pugnacious as she is because she's besotted with him. It would be quite sweet really if she wasn't so annoying sometimes. :shock:

Crankbrother

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

In reply to BS ...

In the 2013 TdF, yes ... Everyone else lost their legs, heads or both in AC's case ...

Although there have been a good few failures for SKY ... From the top of my head we've had 2 Vuelta's, Terrino 2013 and a very embarrassing Giro ... but even then the first 3 of those races would be a success to most other teams ...

That very embarrassing Giro, is that the one where they came second?

Uran ended up in second, but certainly not by any design ...

To take your trump card and fail so badly in every respect is an embarrassment to all but the other riders on that team who done their best to get on with their job despite the circus going on around them ... Brailsford should be more accountable as to how he let things go that far, but then SKY's main (if only) commercial goal is Italy so having a Knighted, TdF winning Olympian on the team was likely forced on him ... Plus they needed something useful for Wiggins to do all season ...

rayjay

sjmclean wrote:

I'm not angry rayjay, you've spent the last 3 or so pages making quips like: "pillows can't make you faster". I gave you an example of how they could possibly help performance, and instead of having this debate you claim to want you make a sarcy comment and move on. It's you all over, you rarely substantiate with hard facts. The most recent "fact" you have is that you just happened to be riding the mountain you were on. Let me question this, if they were riding it the way sky do (race conditions), how did a couple of their team have time to have a casual conversation about cranks? Doesn't strike me as racing a mountain when you are conversing with a fan.

There is no dig in my last comment, as far as I am concerned it is the hard fact of what you are like. It was the same in the Sky threads which got closed recently, you keep rabbling on about a point, someone proves you wrong (generally with sources) and you just come on to the next fabricated point you had, without ever acknowledging you mistake on the last.

Fact , I climbed up Alp D' huez with CSC from top to bottom .I talked with a few of their riders. All the riders that were planned to race the tour were their. They were all spending time together training in the Alps. Is that clear enough.
I only went up Alp D' Huez once. I did not ask them about the schedule or what they would be doing next exactly.
I was just excited to climb with a pro team and not get dropped off the back. My wife was driving our Jeep and met me at the top. We both then got in the cable car and went as far up the mountain as we could. We came back off the cable car and I rode back down and we meet up at the petrol station in Bourg d'Oisans . We then drove back to our hotel in Grenoble. Nothing fabricated about that .

The Pillow remark was a joke. fact If you took as being sarcastic and offensive then that's your problem ,perhaps you need to lighten up .

tell me what else said that is wrong ?

I have been wrong in the past and have apologized on more than one occasion . Check your facts.

I Agree that Sky seem to rely on their power meters more , But that does not stop any rider following Froomes back wheel and having the same ride. The power meter is not making him win IMO

I'm sure not every team will copy Sky exactly but IMO far to much is made of showers in buses etc etc .

Its what you do on your bike and how you rest and recover and all the top riders know exactly how to do that.
How many GT's has Contador won, do you really think he does not know how to ride a GT or are you going to point out a few things to him that he does not already know

That clear enough for you . Your the one who has taken this thread off topic in a childish way not me.

greasedscotsman

rayjay wrote:

Fact , I climbed up Alp D' huez with CSC from top to bottom.

Not bottom to top? :?