What do Sky do that makes them so strong? non-doping thread

24567…27

Comments

  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Hire the strongest riders?

    EBH, Porte, Flecha & Cav aside they've hired capable riders, on par with Cervelo TT
    You're looking at it for a 'Galactico' point of view. A good team isn't made up of stars with lots of ranking points, it's made up of the people best equipped to do the job. Only one rider wins the race. Sky aren't trying to win a fantasy league.
    As I've said, Sky have a 'type' - riders who are have finished in the top 20 in a GT and can reach the final climb and ride at a high tempo for a given period of time.

    "I picked the best team, but not necessarily the best players" - Marcelo Lippi on how he won the 2006 World Cup.

    I agree, teams work best with a couple of pure talents and some hard graft making up the difference ... But to take a bunch of nobodies and have them boss teams with proven domestiques raises an eyebrow ...

    Of course, we do have to factor in the fact that doping is no longer an easy option for anyone with a track record of success (on tneir own or as part of a team) ... but then no-one has been doping since 2007 (apparently) so the playing field was level long before SKY started mullering the opposition ...
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    The reasons why they re so strong are so simple you wonder why no one else does it. Then you think of almost any other sport in the world (try me - name a sport so hopelessly stuck in the past as pro-road cycling) and realise that they ve been doing such things for decades

    It really isnt rocket science. The best analogy for Sky's approach to cycling is not a sporting one but more akin to an atheist looking at a religion.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Same as any team sport, innit?

    Hire the best bunch of people you can who work well together and make sure they do.

    Then, behind the scenes, maximise what you have with training, diet, whatever.

    S'not rocket science.

    People talk about about Sky's inability to be reactive to a race - only sticking to the plan - as a reason why they struggle in one day races.

    That might be a small part of it, but a good 90% of it is to do with the fact they don't have good enough riders to win a classic. Bit like trying to win the Tour with Kiryenka.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    edited January 2014
    Crankbrother wrote:
    I agree, teams work best with a couple of pure talents and some hard graft making up the difference ... But to take a bunch of nobodies and have them boss teams with proven domestiques raises an eyebrow ...
    But they're not nobodies. They're just not stars.

    Cataldo: 12th (twice) in Giro at Quick-Step
    Deignan: 9th in Vuelta at Cervelo
    Kiryienka: 16th in Vuelta at Caisse d'Epagne
    Knees: 20th in Tour at Milram
    Lopez: 14th in Vuelta at Caisse d'Epagne
    Nieve: Consitently top 12 in Giro & Vuelta at Euskaltel
    Porte: 7th in Giro at Saxo
    Siutsou: 9th in Giro at HTC
    Zandio: 22nd at Tour at Caisse d'Epagne

    Then there's Rogers (7th at Giro at HTC), Uran (3rd at Lombardy), Henao (Tour of Colombia winner), Kennaugh (Baby Giro podium), Thomas (30th at Tour), Dombrowski (Baby Giro winner)

    And even if we discount ALL of that lot, what are we left with?
    EBH, Eisel (G-W winner), Pate (u23 World TT champ), Puccio (U23 RVV winner, Giro pink jersey), Sutton (KBK winner), Stannard (good classics rider)

    So yeah. Bunch of nobodies.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    Rick has it right ... 'make sure they do' ...

    The majority of SKY's 'team' wouldn't get a gig elsewhere (look at the recent transfer market), so boy does that make them motivated ... I'm not bashing SKY on this, regardless of my scepticism, they have made it work ...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    edited January 2014
    Crankbrother wrote:
    The majority of SKY's 'team' wouldn't get a gig elsewhere
    Who wouldn't? Name names. 'The majority' is about 15, but I'll settle for six (excluding Earle (brand new) and JTL (damaged goods))
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    I agree, teams work best with a couple of pure talents and some hard graft making up the difference ... But to take a bunch of nobodies and have them boss teams with proven domestiques raises an eyebrow ...
    But they're not nobodies. They're just not stars.

    Cataldo: 12th (twice) in Giro at Quick-Step
    Deignan: 9th in Vuelta at Cervelo
    Kiryienka: 16th in Vuelta at Caisse d'Epagne
    Knees: 20th in Tour at Milram
    Lopez: 14th in Vuelta at Caisse d'Epagne
    Nieve: Consitently top 12 in Giro & Vuelta at Euskaltel
    Porte: 7th in Giro at Saxo
    Siutsou: 9th in Giro at HTC
    Zandio: 22nd at Tour at Caisse d'Epagne

    Then there's Rogers (7th at Giro at HTC), Uran (3rd at Lombardy), Henao (Tour of Colombia winner), Kennaugh (Baby Giro podium), Thomas (30th at Tour), Dombrowski (Baby Giro winner)

    In true SKY style, that's just a bunch of numbers ...

    Other than Porte and Rogers, does anyone remember any of those guys mixing it up at the sharp end of anything until SKY?

    For example, you can believe Nico Roche's recent Vuelta run ... Yes, he'd always come up short, but at least he was active in the final stages at some point ...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    edited January 2014
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Other than Porte and Rogers, does anyone remember any of those guys mixing it up at the sharp end of anything until SKY?
    No. And they don't at Sky either. They're not hired to do that. You really don't get it do you?

    At the Worlds, Spain had the world no.1 and the world no.3 in the final four and lost. Why? Because neither was a team player. Substitute Lopez, for example, for one of them and they probably would have won.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Rick has it right ... 'make sure they do' ...

    The majority of SKY's 'team' wouldn't get a gig elsewhere (look at the recent transfer market), so boy does that make them motivated ... I'm not bashing SKY on this, regardless of my scepticism, they have made it work ...

    Utter garbage.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    The majority of SKY's 'team' wouldn't get a gig elsewhere
    Who wouldn't? Name names. 'The majority' is about 15, but I'll settle for six (excluding Earle (brand new) and JTL (damaged goods))

    I'm not wasting an hour on this ...

    So you go through the SKY team (other than Froome/Porte/EBH) and tell me which of their riders would replace someone else on a current WT team, taking into account sponsor and national demographics ...

    Thomas would get on Garmin 'cos they like a TT/Rouleur, after that I'm toiling ...

    I've also mentioned in another thread that I'm not convinced of Froome's value to anyone else ... Sporting merit aside, I just can't see where he can get a gig (other than, again, Garmin) ...
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Other than Porte and Rogers, does anyone remember any of those guys mixing it up at the sharp end of anything until SKY?
    No. And they don't at Sky either. They're not hired to do that. You really don't get it do you?

    At the Worlds, Spain had the world no.1 and the world no.3 in the final four and lost. Why? Because neither was a team player. Substitute Lopez, for example, for one of them and they probably would have won.

    Don't be patronising ... I get 'it' ...

    Porte and Rogers were at the sharp end of virtually all Wiggins' & Froome's wins ... Visible players making the difference ...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    RichN95 wrote:

    At the Worlds, Spain had the world no.1 and the world no.3 in the final four and lost. Why? Because neither was a team player. Substitute Lopez, for example, for one of them and they probably would have won.

    Movistar won though ;). Definitely a team player, just the wrong team...
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    Crankbrother wrote:
    I'm not wasting an hour on this ...

    So you go through the SKY team (other than Froome/Porte/EBH) and tell me which of their riders would replace someone else on a current WT team, taking into account sponsor and national demographics ...

    Thomas would get on Garmin 'cos they like a TT/Rouleur, after that I'm toiling ...

    I've also mentioned in another thread that I'm not convinced of Froome's value to anyone else ... Sporting merit aside, I just can't see where he can get a gig (other than, again, Garmin) ...
    Back in the 1990s Kenny Dalglish, manager of Blackburn Rovers wanted to buy a player from Bordeaux called Zinedine Zidane to buy by Bordeaux. The Chairman, Jack Walker said "Why do you want to sign Zidane when we have Tim Sherwood?"

    You are making as much sense now as he did then. Why would anyone want to sign Froome when they have Evans, Betancur, Mollema, van den Broeck, Rolland, Cunego, Basso, etc.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    Delete
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Don't be patronising ... I get 'it' ...

    Porte and Rogers were at the sharp end of virtually all Wiggins' & Froome's wins ... Visible players making the difference ...
    No, you clearly don't get it. You put emphasis on riders being 'visible' at the very end, not on their effectiveness. How many riders do you think are needed in the last 4km?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    Rich, you're football analogy doesn't work with the dynamics of pro cycling ...

    Yes Froome won the tour but what is the value of that to other teams ...

    I used AG2R as an example ... Riblon's win on Alpe d'Huez was surely worth more, him being a frenchman and the gravitas of the stage, than AG2R winning the tour with a Safa (he wouldn't be British without SKY) ...
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Yes Froome won the tour but what is the value of that to other teams ...

    I used AG2R as an example ... Riblon's win on Alpe d'Huez was surely worth more, him being a frenchman and the gravitas of the stage, than AG2R winning the tour with a Safa (he wouldn't be British without SKY) ...

    Chambers_13_280x39_1363757a.jpg

    French teams don't give a monkeys about the Tour you know Rich, they can take it or leave it!

    (oh my god, what the actual flippityfuck!!)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Don't be patronising ... I get 'it' ...

    Porte and Rogers were at the sharp end of virtually all Wiggins' & Froome's wins ... Visible players making the difference ...
    No, you clearly don't get it. You put emphasis on riders being 'visible' at the very end, not on their effectiveness. How many riders do you think are needed in the last 4km?

    I clearly do ...

    All the other riders you gave 'results' for just moseyed they're way into those with nothing to fight for or anyone to fight against ... There are at least 20 domestiques we remember turning themselves inside out in the last 20km to get their men into contention (or keep them there) ... none of the SKY riders had that in their arsenal until then ...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    edited January 2014
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Yes Froome won the tour but what is the value of that to other teams ...
    I'll just leave that quote there to speak for itself
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    ddraver wrote:
    French teams don't give a monkeys about the Tour you know Rich, they can take it or leave it!
    They won't be doing with any of those foreign types, you know.

    For leaders they stick to their own like Navarro, Betancur, Roche, Taaramae, LeMond, Zulle, Hushovd, Boardman, Millar etc
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RoadPainter
    RoadPainter Posts: 375
    So the knowledgeable troll plays the ignorance card to get fed.

    Please ignore the numpty!
  • k1875
    k1875 Posts: 485
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Rich, you're football analogy doesn't work with the dynamics of pro cycling ...

    Yes Froome won the tour but what is the value of that to other teams ...

    I used AG2R as an example ... Riblon's win on Alpe d'Huez was surely worth more, him being a frenchman and the gravitas of the stage, than AG2R winning the tour with a Safa (he wouldn't be British without SKY) ...

    Any kind of reasoned answer to your posts just validates your unashamed trolling, which the post above clearly demonstrates is what your doing here, so I won't bother with one.

    Just stop posting and do something else with your time. You aren't good at this.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Crankbrother wrote:
    I used AG2R as an example ... Riblon's win on Alpe d'Huez was surely worth more, him being a frenchman and the gravitas of the stage, than AG2R winning the tour with a Safa (he wouldn't be British without SKY) ...

    Nor would he be a saffa old bean. Not born there, parents ain't from there etc.

    But don't let facts cloud your judgement
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    Thanks Iain, I knew there was a flaw in my post ... Turns out is was just that one ;)
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I think it is SKY's approach and methods which is the major factor behind their(not as universal as some may think) success and the creation and steady rise of OCE in Australia will bear this out.

    At the moment I still think OCE are wrestling to get their act together and the lack of a recognised GC rider has hampered that but we all know that the Aussies aren't mugs when it comes to sport. It is the only thing that defines them as a nation and they have seen how SKY have been successful and will eventually take it to the next level as the most often do in all sports.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Conclusive proof of Sky doping

    6562343-disposable-syringe-against-the-blue-sky.jpg
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    Joelsim wrote:
    Conclusive proof of Sky doping

    6562343-disposable-syringe-against-the-blue-sky.jpg

    To be fair, that's the best evidence I've seen so far.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    I'm just waiting for someone to say it's B12.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Conclusive proof of Sky doping

    6562343-disposable-syringe-against-the-blue-sky.jpg

    To be fair, that's the best evidence I've seen so far.


    :)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    Joelsim wrote:
    I'm just waiting for someone to say it's B12.
    That's still banned. All injections are.
    Twitter: @RichN95
This discussion has been closed.

Categories