Madeline: Should her parents have left her

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DJIP

I know that I'm not going to take me (future) kids to Portugal after all this "Peadofile Capital of the World" thing they keep mentioning on GMTV.
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With that logic, you've already banned your kids from a fair proportion of the world, and it'll not be long before the rest is a paedophile capital.

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DJIP · May 2007

Guess they won't get to go on holiday then.

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JinjaNinja · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DigDug

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja

I think thats the problem most of us have, the parents didn't feel the need for a childminder. If I was the parents, I would have.
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As I've already said, it's very easy to say that when you don't have children (Im assuming, apologies if wrong ).
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja
As for the secureity issue, Theres a fairly good chance the the kidnapper knocked on the door. Little girl answers the door and nothing else she can do.
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So the kidnapper must have known that she was in there alone, so has been stalking them? Surely that would be noticed by someone. Or maybe not, I don't know.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja
OR the child could have woken up, scared the mummy and daddy arn't anywhere to be seen, and goes to look for them out side the hotel door. At least if that was at home she would be around all the neighbours who would probably know the child and go get if found wondering about by herself.
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Im sure hotel staff would notice a young child walking around on her own with a scared/worried look on their face.

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No need for apologies, I do have a son though. If me and my (fture) missis want to go on a holiday with my son, it would be a family holiday, I wouldn't leave him un attended, espcially if it was somewhere I/He was that unfamiliar with. I.E. no idea where a police station is or a vaigly safe building to go if say, you were being chased by muggers etc... If I wanted to wine and dine the lady, My son would stay with someone else (family or friends) for the weekend and we'd go away our selfs. This is how its done when your a parent. Its how most parents think, constantly.

It would be nice to think that a hotel worker would see a child wondering about by themselfs, but how often have you stayed in a hotel and made it from your door to reception with out seeing anyone, i know i have countless times.

Apparently there was a BMW "scoping out" children matching madelines description, the owner of this car suspected to be involved with piedophile rings. Although thats from one mew site a co-worker was reading, so i'm not going to protest the truth behind it or anything like that. Just a valid thing to mention me thinks.

Or the whole thing could have been an opertunist who just happend to find out enough info to grab her at the right point? I guess we just don't know. Although the fact the two other children wern't touched makes me think its more likley Madaline went wondering.

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Big Red S · May 2007

I'm sure I've repeatedly heard the term 'break in', though, which would imply she was in the apartment (asleep?) at the time.

If it's to order, why bother taking more than absolutely neccesary?

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Or, if you genuinely believe that the room they're already asleep in is safe, you leave them there.
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You think that a room that they don't know in a hotel they don't know is a safe place to leave children, all of which are very young and unable to fend or themselves?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Yes, it was locked.
I just cant get my head round the idea that it being a holiday home or hotel means it was less secure than a house.
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Maybe it's to do with the fact that a hotel has random strangers wondering round it 24 hours a day?
Chances are, with a house, you get to learn who lives near you, thus they aren't strangers any longer.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
No, but I'd suggest that the fault that lies with the parents is far closer to that of the hotel than that of the kidnapper.
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What do you mean? People look to blame the parents or the hotel, avoiding blaming the kidnapper as he is the person who actually took part in the crime.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
No. It's not that much effort.
But can you not see that before she was kidnapped, without the benefit of hindsight, they didn't think they needed it? You don't really believe that the parents thought they needed a babysitter but didn't get one anyway?
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I can see that they must have thought that they didn't need a babysitter, but obviously they did. I fail to understand how they can have thought that they didn't need a kidnapper.

EDIT:
I didn't mean that last sentence at all. I typed the wrong thing, ideas got jumbled in my head. [:(]

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Or, if you genuinely believe that the room they're already asleep in is safe, you leave them there.
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You think that a room that they don't know in a hotel they don't know is a safe place to leave children, all of which are very young and unable to fend or themselves?
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I don't know. I don't know how long they were in that are a for. I don't know who was nearby. I don't know how comfortable the children felt in the room.
I'm guessing, though, that the parents did. And they used this information to come to the (fairly correct) conclusion that there was a very minimal chance of something bad happening.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Yes, it was locked.
I just cant get my head round the idea that it being a holiday home or hotel means it was less secure than a house.
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Maybe it's to do with the fact that a hotel has random strangers wondering round it 24 hours a day?
Chances are, with a house, you get to learn who lives near you, thus they aren't strangers any longer.
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And that makes it more secure? The simple fact of whos around?
Never mind the fact that there is easier public access to the entrance of a house, that the entrances of houses are rarely covered with CCTV and that you don't tend to have security in the lobby at the end of your road.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
No, but I'd suggest that the fault that lies with the parents is far closer to that of the hotel than that of the kidnapper.
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What do you mean? People look to blame the parents or the hotel, avoiding blaming the kidnapper as he is the person who actually took part in the crime.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Let's say that we've decided that the only people to blame are the parent, the kidnapper and the hotel staff. And that it is fair and reasonable to divvy up this 'total blame' between them.
The amount the hotel got would be minimal. The amount the parents got would be slightly more. The amount the kidnapper got should be the vast majority.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
No. It's not that much effort.
But can you not see that before she was kidnapped, without the benefit of hindsight, they didn't think they needed it? You don't really believe that the parents thought they needed a babysitter but didn't get one anyway?
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I can see that they must have thought that they didn't need a babysitter, but obviously they did. I fail to understand how they can have thought that they didn't need a kidnapper.
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No-one needs a kidnapper. Do they?

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SJ · May 2007

I don't agree that they should have left their three children alone in the hotel, asleep in their beds while they went out for dinner.
At that very young age I don't agree that children should be left alone in their own homes!

I don't see how they can face prosecution for negligence, even though in my eyes that is what it comes down to.

They 'thought' the children would be safe. The harsh reality of it is that one is now most likely dead.

I bet they won't ever leave the other two in a hotel room alone again.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by El Capitano

Oh, and TBH, SJ is a much better stalker than you.....
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Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

No-one needs a kidnapper. Do they?

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I think Tavy might have a use for one...

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blacksun · May 2007

I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, so I'll just add my two cents worth at the end...

It's sad that the parents have to go through the ordeal, but it's entirely their own fault for leaving the kids alone and they should be served with a good sizable fine for wasting police time and money (after all, this is all their own fault) even if they do find the girl or not.

I was going to say, take their other kids and put them in care, but most kids in the care system turn out to be cunts and only end up in jail anyway.

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blacksun · May 2007

What did you do to that quote?

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
And that makes it more secure? The simple fact of whos around?
Never mind the fact that there is easier public access to the entrance of a house, that the entrances of houses are rarely covered with CCTV and that you don't tend to have security in the lobby at the end of your road.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was unaware they had CCTV covering the room. Is this the case?

Okay, maybe secure was the wrong word. Safe would cover it better. In a housing estate, there are many friendly neighbours around, rather than faces who change on a daily basis. Because of that, you get used to the people and the area, and feel safe there after a while.

This would be less likely to happen in a hotel in a foreign country, quite possibly due to the large number of visitors entering and leaving the hotel, making it difficult to know many people in the vicinity.

Security was obviously either a complete waste of time quality-wise, or the crime was carried out in such a way that it wasn't at all obvious at the time that it was being done.

If this was the case, having security at the end of your road wouldn't be any advantage anyway.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Let's say that we've decided that the only people to blame are the parent, the kidnapper and the hotel staff. And that it is fair and reasonable to divvy up this 'total blame' between them.
The amount the hotel got would be minimal. The amount the parents got would be slightly more. The amount the kidnapper got should be the vast majority.
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I think that is what should (and hopefully will) happen.

Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
And that makes it more secure? The simple fact of whos around?
Never mind the fact that there is easier public access to the entrance of a house, that the entrances of houses are rarely covered with CCTV and that you don't tend to have security in the lobby at the end of your road.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was unaware they had CCTV covering the room. Is this the case?

Okay, maybe secure was the wrong word. Safe would cover it better. In a housing estate, there are many friendly neighbours around, rather than faces who change on a daily basis. Because of that, you get used to the people and the area, and feel safe there after a while.

This would be less likely to happen in a hotel in a foreign country, quite possibly due to the large number of visitors entering and leaving the hotel, making it difficult to know many people in the vicinity.

Security was obviously either a complete waste of time quality-wise, or the crime was carried out in such a way that it wasn't at all obvious at the time that it was being done.

If this was the case, having security at the end of your road wouldn't be any advantage anyway.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Let's say that we've decided that the only people to blame are the parent, the kidnapper and the hotel staff. And that it is fair and reasonable to divvy up this 'total blame' between them.
The amount the hotel got would be minimal. The amount the parents got would be slightly more. The amount the kidnapper got should be the vast majority.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that is what should (and hopefully will) happen.

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He doesn't mean covering the room, he means covering the building.

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

I feel people are wandering off topic slightly (from the off-topic topic..), that it is irrelevant for the current arguement whether the girl was taken by someone or not.

What's being debated is whether they should be prosicuted for leaving her in the room alone.

It's irrelevant to that case whether she was kidnapped, burnt in a fire, or completely fine and slept through the half hour without an issue. What needs to be decided is whether they should be prosicuted for leaving a child alone.

I feel they should, and at the same time, I feel when it went to court, the judge should give no further punishment as their loss is enough, but it should still be a legal matter.

Of course no-one could predict some-one was going to take the child, the blame for that lies ENTIRELY with the kidnapper. However, the parents are to blame fully, and completely indipendantly, for leaving young babies alone in a room.

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dogtanian · May 2007

I reckon the Scientologists did it.

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digdug · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dogtanian

I reckon the Scientologists did it.

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I reckon your post was totally inapproriate, as it gave nothing towards the argument except a silly response.

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Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

What's being debated is whether they should be prosicuted for leaving her in the room alone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, Alex asked two entirely separate questions. One in the title and the other in the body.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I feel they should, and at the same time, I feel when it went to court, the judge should give no further punishment as their loss is enough, but it should still be a legal matter.
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See, i feel that parenting is one of those areas where, once it is decided that the government may dictate how it is done in the face of experience, we may have reached the point where we cannot be trusted to choose our own government.
Yes, the government should have a say, and yes if something does lead to a lot of Bad Things and is still practiced regularly, it might be worth legislating (more likely advising) against it.
But, given that this kidnapping is an incredibly special and original occurrence, I don't think it's fair to say that this is one of those things a right-minded government led by a right-minding electorate would be willing to devote time to.
Unfortunately, we seem increasingly to have neither.

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Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
And that makes it more secure? The simple fact of whos around?
Never mind the fact that there is easier public access to the entrance of a house, that the entrances of houses are rarely covered with CCTV and that you don't tend to have security in the lobby at the end of your road.
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I was unaware they had CCTV covering the room. Is this the case?
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Hell, I've no idea, but since everyone else seemed to be making bold assumptions I thought I'd join in.
AFAIK, they were in an apartment, not a hotel room. But that's not where the discussion went...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Okay, maybe secure was the wrong word. Safe would cover it better. In a housing estate, there are many friendly neighbours around, rather than faces who change on a daily basis. Because of that, you get used to the people and the area, and feel safe there after a while.
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Yes, you *feel* safe. But is there any way to measure how safe you actually are, or will be? Surely all you can measure is your own perception of it and make judgements based on what has happened? 'Safety' is just a measure of the likelyhood and magnitude of bad things happening.
I still maintain that leaving the children in that room was a pretty safe bet. The chances were pretty low that anything bad would happen. It just so happened that they did this time.

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kateob · May 2007

I think you are all sick. Is now the time to be saying what you're all saying? A child is missing, could be dead or worse, being horribly abused, missing her parents...I dread to think. At this time, we should all be focusing on just how awfully guilty and responsible those parents feel and more importantly we should all be hoping for at least some kind of resolution on this. You're kicking people down who could not feel any lower than they already probably feel. At the end of the day they have been punished when their guard was down, their only mistake was to allow themselves to be taken in by the false sense of security these types of resorts are engineered to make people feel. Is that really the crime here?...I think not, the crime here is that an innocent child has been snatched whilst sleeping in her bed. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I wish I were as perfect as you all profess to be!

roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob

I think you are all sick. Is now the time to be saying what you're all saying? A child is missing, could be dead or worse, being horribly abused, missing her parents...I dread to think. At this time, we should all be focusing on just how awfully guilty and responsible those parents feel and more importantly we should all be hoping for at least some kind of resolution on this. You're kicking people down who could not feel any lower than they already probably feel. At the end of the day they have been punished when their guard was down, their only mistake was to allow themselves to be taken in by the false sense of security these types of resorts are engineered to make people feel. Is that really the crime here?...I think not, the crime here is that an innocent child has been snatched whilst sleeping in her bed. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I wish I were as perfect as you all profess to be!
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Nothing is harmed by us debating in this way. We don't mean to be nasty. We are having an innocent discussion. Of course our thoughts are with the family, and we think it is shocking that a child could be snatched like this. However, having this discussion harms nobody.

kateob · May 2007

I'm just not sure how constructive it is to be debating the criminalisation of people who made a mistake, that they will undoubtedly be punishing themselves more for than any court sentance. This was not pre-meditated..what purpose would it serve to prosecute the parents..other than for the satisfaction of members of the public who clearly have no sense of compassion, sense or any real knowledge, other than through the media of what really happended.

roryf · May 2007

I never said it would be constructive. We're just debating if the parents should be punished. Lots of people have differing views on the subject, as you've probably noticed from the multi-pageness of this thread!

kateob · May 2007

Sorry, but I thought we were debating whether the parents of Madeleine McCann should be punished for leaving their children, and lets get this into perspective here, they were 100 yards away from the room, within the complex...I just thought that by virtue of the fact that their child has been snatched was the punishment...you couldn't punish them any more than that surely? As a parent of a child the same age as this little girl I could not think of any greater punishment.

roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob

Sorry, but I thought we were debating whether the parents of Madeleine McCann should be punished for leaving their children, and lets get this into perspective here, they were 100 yards away from the room, within the complex...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You thought correctly, as I said that that was the theme of the thread, in my last post. It has been said in many posts.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob
I just thought that by virtue of the fact that their child has been snatched was the punishment...you couldn't punish them any more than that surely? As a parent of a child the same age as this little girl I could not think of any greater punishment.
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Alot of people think the same as you.

JinjaNinja · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob

and lets get this into perspective here, they were 100 yards away from the room, within the complex...I just thought that by virtue of the
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok, lets get this into perspective here, they left a 3 year old, and 2 two year olds unattended in a hotel that they wenr't in.

End of.

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Simonb256 · May 2007

I really dont want to get involved with this thread as to be honest I really don't care.

Whats the difference between this child going missing and any other? Its blown out of proportion majorly.
Whether the parents should get punished or not, isnt really an issue. They were near negligent IMO.

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SJ · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob

Sorry, but I thought we were debating whether the parents of Madeleine McCann should be punished for leaving their children, and lets get this into perspective here, they were 100 yards away from the room, within the complex...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree that the loss of a chld is punishing enough but I am still of the opinion that they should not have left their three young children alone while they went out, regardless of being '100 yards away'.

When I become a parent I will never leave my child alone in a hotel room at a young age, I wouldn't even leave him/her alone in my own house at a young age!

So many bad things could have happened and one very bad thing did.

I don't expect the poor girl will turn up at all, if she does then i doubt she will be alive. It's very sad and very tragic but like I said before in the thread, I bet the parents will never leave the other two children alone again.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by El Capitano

Oh, and TBH, SJ is a much better stalker than you.....
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Sam B256 · May 2007

All i'm going to say is.. The parents should be ashamed and blaming themselves..

In my opinion anyway..

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Fulltime Slacker · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kateob

Sorry, but I thought we were debating whether the parents of Madeleine McCann should be punished for leaving their children, and lets get this into perspective here, they were 100 yards away from the room, within the complex...I just thought that by virtue of the fact that their child has been snatched was the punishment...you couldn't punish them any more than that surely? As a parent of a child the same age as this little girl I could not think of any greater punishment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Apparantly they wernt it was alot further but we dont know, i agree with most of the stuff being said on here to be honest but if whoever has her and shes still alive, obviously they should give up now, christ, even just leaving her somewhere in the world where ever they have her and making a fake phone/alarm call or somthing, reduces theyre chances of being caught. But eventually its going to be out of the papers and news, its already way back in the news papers whereas a few weeks ago it was on the front or page 2/3 etc. They want to keep it in the public eye but the obvious truth is that even the media are giving up hope.

Bikes innit

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by homers double

But he's French.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

wiltonjh · May 2007

I was left alone in the house as a child (8 onwards... ish) while my parents were at work, went out to dinner etc, but I think that it's the fact that they left them alone in an unfamiliar environment in a foreign country that makes me lean towards the negligence opinion. True, they do want to keep in within the public eye, but to be honest, those who cared would've donated by now, i think...

Quick side note -
did anyone see the appeal from Beckham a few days after the incident?
what a..... and anyway, why would anyone with information who saw that
A)not have already been to the police/authorities
B)be persuaded to go after sitting to half an hour of news about the kid?
Ah well...

roryf · May 2007

I think celebrities just like to be seen as "helping out".

Madeline: Should her parents have left her

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