Madeline: Should her parents have left her

Big Red S · May 2007

No, this would be more death through negligence, or words to that effect. Manslaughter, if I remember correctly, requires you to have done something that aided in the killing (which can be neglect), but here they did nothing to aid it, they just also did nothing to stop it.

The difference would be that it was the mechanic's fault and the mechanic's fault entirely that that person died in the crash. He can't shift the blame.
The parents here can quite reasonably point out that the kidnapper had more to do with madeline's dissapearence than they did.

But, again, what's to gain from any prosecution? Is there any point in prosecuting them given that no-one's got anything to gain from it?

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Marshall · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SexyFrank

I'm not sure how "manslaughter" is legally defined, but I'm fairly sure it's something along the lines of "killing without implied intent," which is what I see this as. They didn't mean for anything to happen, and 9 times out of 10, there wouldn't have been a problem. But now, because of their actions someone has ended up dead.

Supposing a mechanic was mending a part of a car, but he leaves off a bolt when putting something back on. Again, 90% of the time, there wouldn't be a problem, but this time, someone crashes and dies because of his shoddy work.
I think it's fairly safe to say that if it's tracked back to him, he'll be prosecuted. No doubt, he would feel utterly terrible and never do it again and the prosecution would be an "slap in the face"....
I know that this is all my opinion etc, but can you see the comparison I'm trying to draw here?
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There's a case like this going on over here at the moment, not going to go into details but the mechanics have been charged with Manslaughter due to negligence.

What you've got to remember though Frank that, as grim as it may be, there can't be a manslaughter charge with no body. I'm not sure if you'll remeber this and I may be digressing a wee bit but not too long ago (last year poss?) there was a girl who escaped her captive after a very long time of being imprissoned, how would you feel if you'd been sent to prison (or branded with manslaughter) only to find your child was actually alive and well (I say 'well' in the loosest term possible)?

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ElephantMan · May 2007

I don't remember Marshall, but I know what you mean. I don't expect anyone to be prosecuted until Madeline is recovered

Anyway, I guess it's just all down to opinion. I think it's fairly safe however, to say that they won't be prosecuted.

nirveous · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because you were talking about the benefits to be had of leaving a three year old in charge of her two younger siblings for an evening. Or so I thought?
I have a vague idea of how the humand mind works, yes. Certainly enough to know that it's different when you are three to when you are thirty.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">ok ok, leaving her in charge of her two sisters/brothers was ott, but that wasnt what i was reffering to. i was suggesting that giving someone the responsibility of something at a young age helps them develoip better; improving sef-efficacy etc.
whats 30 got to do with anything? i didnt bring that in. responsibility at 30 is an annoyance in soime ways rather than helping you to develop.

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elmotheewokking · May 2007

A self efficient three year old. I think I've heard them all now.
Very stupid and costly mistake. No more IMO. Shame on them.

<center>
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by i_used_2b_fukpigonabike

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roryf · May 2007

With a manslaughter verdict, a small part of it is so that the deceased loved ones can feel satisfied that justice has been done - that the killer is no longer able to live a normal life.

With this case, manslaughter verdict would be ineffective in that sense, because the ones that want to see justice being served are, at the moment, the "criminals".

If anybody is going to be taken to court over this, surely it should be the killer/murderer/whoever took the girl?

Anonymous · May 2007

I dont know if its been mentioned, but I was talking to someone who does Childcare/something along those lines.
And there is an EU law about leaving children on there own, I think they said under the age of 12 but I'm not to sure.
At the end of the day the hotel had a facility to look after the children, there is no excuse what so ever for it.

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roryf · May 2007

There is always a facility for childcare - if they needed to then they could have got a babysitter or something like that, so saying "there is no excuse for it" could be used in any situation.

Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

I did, and you know I agree with that. (except it's "knives").

But we've got embroiled in other discussions, as is the way here

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know you read it, I was trying to get everyone else who is banging on about 'responsibility' and crap like that which frankly has no relevance to the topic what so ever, to read it. Oh well.

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Anonymous · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

There is always a facility for childcare - if they needed to then they could have got a babysitter or something like that, so saying "there is no excuse for it" could be used in any situation.
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Which is true, there is never really an excuse for leaving a child alone.

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clarkson · May 2007

matt, resoponsibility does have something to do with it.

taking the parents to court would be unneccessary. what purpose would it serve?
surely the parents should feel relatively confident that no-one would enter, especially if the door was locked, although i'm not sure it was tbh.

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Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Glyn

Which is true, there is never really an excuse for leaving a child alone.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, there is. And it should be up to no-one but their parents to decide when a child is old enough to be left on their own.
I'm not saying that a three year old is at all likely to be ready for it, but at the same time I don't see any fairness in saying that a twelve year old, for example, couldn't be.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

matt, resoponsibility does have something to do with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes. Responsibility of the parents does have something to do with it. Not of the children. Can you please either show us the results of a study which demonstrated that three year olds in general can gain from being left to babysit their two younger siblings, or stop with the 'it improves their self worth' crap?

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Anonymous · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Glyn

Which is true, there is never really an excuse for leaving a child alone.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, there is. And it should be up to no-one but their parents to decide when a child is old enough to be left on their own.
I'm not saying that a three year old is at all likely to be ready for it, but at the same time I don't see any fairness in saying that a twelve year old, for example, couldn't be.
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I do think a 12 year old is ready to be left alone. It is a matter of opinion when a child should be left alone, but a 3 year old in many people's eyes would be deemed unacceptable.

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JinjaNinja · May 2007

Tottaly irresponsible for a few reasons.

1, It was a hotel room in another country. You have little knowledge of the area, less knowledge of who works in the hotel, who has keys to your room. In your home (where meany of us were left as kids) we were relivily safe knowing who had the keys. Police in other countires ain't always helpful or nice. Plus you child is in unfamiliar surroundings.

2, She was left alone with 2 younger children (twins aged 2)! WFT? I mena was she ment to be babysitting at 3 years old?, all because the parents needed to get away from the kids. If you need to get away from the children, get a relative or nanny to take care of them for the weekend and go away knowing there safe.

3, The hotel had a baby sitting service, Just to save a couple of euros a Doctor and a Surgeon left 3 children all under the age of 4 together (colective age of under 6!) un-attended.

These people are absolute self centered idiots who deserve everything they get, apart from all this help, started by
OMG TEH MEDIA!!!

Evryone was left alone by parents as a kid, but if the situation was as above, i hope you've slapped your parents by now.

Finaly I feel sorry for the little girl. I would think shes dead now, and if she isn't she would want to be.

Feel free to chllenge these points if you will.

P.S. When was the last time some of you meet a 3 yr old. I saw my little neice for the first time since she was a baby, now she's 3, and i wouldn't let her go out in the garden by herself. purely for the fact ANYTHING could happen to her.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
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Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja

1, It was a hotel room in another country. You have little knowledge of the area, less knowledge of who works in the hotel, who has keys to your room. In your home (where meany of us were left as kids) we were relivily safe knowing who had the keys. Police in other countires ain't always helpful or nice. Plus you child is in unfamiliar surroundings.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If anything, I'd presume a tourist resort would be less prone to people breaking and entering than somewhere residential, since people tend to carry all their valuables round with them.
Police in this country aren't always helpful or nice.
Unfamiliar surroundings? How long had they been staying in that apartment?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
2, She was left alone with 2 younger children (twins aged 2)! WFT? I mena was she ment to be babysitting at 3 years old?, all because the parents needed to get away from the kids. If you need to get away from the children, get a relative or nanny to take care of them for the weekend and go away knowing there safe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Or, alternatively, you want to take your children one holiday with you, but one evening, while they're asleep, you also decide you'd rather like a nice, quiet evening out.
The kids are alseep in their rooms, so you're not going to want to wake them up just to give them to a childminder. They don't need minding, anyway, they're asleep. And you'll be checking on them regularly.
More regularly, in fact, than you probably would if they were asleep in your own home.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
These people are absolute self centered idiots who deserve everything they get, apart from all this help, started by
OMG TEH MEDIA!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Help started by the media? Are you insane? Say you lost a relative, would you want it all over _every_ british newspaper for three weeks? Now imagine that relative was your child.
They're gaining nothing from the media, except a couple of extravagant offers of reward money. They're getting help from the police, and there's no question as to whether they deserve that.

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Anonymous · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
2, She was left alone with 2 younger children (twins aged 2)! WFT? I mena was she ment to be babysitting at 3 years old?, all because the parents needed to get away from the kids. If you need to get away from the children, get a relative or nanny to take care of them for the weekend and go away knowing there safe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Or, alternatively, you want to take your children one holiday with you, but one evening, while they're asleep, you also decide you'd rather like a nice, quiet evening out.
The kids are alseep in their rooms, so you're not going to want to wake them up just to give them to a childminder. They don't need minding, anyway, they're asleep. And you'll be checking on them regularly.
More regularly, in fact, than you probably would if they were asleep in your own home.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But isn't that something you forgo when you become a parent?

If they wanted to go on holiday and go out by themselves perhaps they should have left the children with a relative whilst they went away?
I know soon as I was born my parents rarely went out like that, if they did I either stayed over at grandparents, or they stayed over.

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JinjaNinja · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja

1, It was a hotel room in another country. You have little knowledge of the area, less knowledge of who works in the hotel, who has keys to your room. In your home (where meany of us were left as kids) we were relivily safe knowing who had the keys. Police in other countires ain't always helpful or nice. Plus you child is in unfamiliar surroundings.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If anything, I'd presume a tourist resort would be less prone to people breaking and entering than somewhere residential, since people tend to carry all their valuables round with them.
Police in this country aren't always helpful or nice.
Unfamiliar surroundings? How long had they been staying in that apartment?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
2, She was left alone with 2 younger children (twins aged 2)! WFT? I mena was she ment to be babysitting at 3 years old?, all because the parents needed to get away from the kids. If you need to get away from the children, get a relative or nanny to take care of them for the weekend and go away knowing there safe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Or, alternatively, you want to take your children one holiday with you, but one evening, while they're asleep, you also decide you'd rather like a nice, quiet evening out.
The kids are alseep in their rooms, so you're not going to want to wake them up just to give them to a childminder. They don't need minding, anyway, they're asleep. And you'll be checking on them regularly.
More regularly, in fact, than you probably would if they were asleep in your own home.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
These people are absolute self centered idiots who deserve everything they get, apart from all this help, started by
OMG TEH MEDIA!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Help started by the media? Are you insane? Say you lost a relative, would you want it all over _every_ british newspaper for three weeks? Now imagine that relative was your child.
They're gaining nothing from the media, except a couple of extravagant offers of reward money. They're getting help from the police, and there's no question as to whether they deserve that.

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I hope you don't become a parent.

"Or, alternatively, you want to take your children one holiday with you, but one evening, while they're asleep, you also decide you'd rather like a nice, quiet evening out."

Thats it, No, you don't. Children first... Children first... Children first...

You also missed out 3, Baby sitters availble. Yes, you do bother waking them if you really NEED to go out. I know that when we went on family holidays thats what they were. FAMILY! If my parents wanted some time alone, i'd stay at my nan's parents go off for a weekend.

No thing except they were going out to pay a randsom on another child would make me say " oh ok, i can see why they left them now."

<hr noshade size="1">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Glyn

But isn't that something you forgo when you become a parent?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not always, no.
Lots of people want to keep some semblance of their life when they become a parent.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
If they wanted to go on holiday and go out by themselves perhaps they should have left the children with a relative whilst they went away?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But what if they wanted to go on holiday with the children, but one evening, while they were asleep, wanted a break. And went to a restaurant?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I know soon as I was born my parents rarely went out like that, if they did I either stayed over at grandparents, or they stayed over.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But, back when I was small (and presumably when you were), dinner parties were very fashionable. So you'd entertain downstairs while your children were asleep upstairs. Which, so far as I can see, is no better supervised, but maybe that's just me. And, besides, even given the time and tools to do it, it would have rendered the excercise pointless if they'd had to cook for themselves.

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
But what if they wanted to go on holiday with the children, but one evening, while they were asleep, wanted a break. And went to a restaurant?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Then they should have arranged adequate supervision of the children, of course! But, going on a family holiday, they shouldn't have even expected one evening alone, not with children of that age.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
But, back when I was small (and presumably when you were), dinner parties were very fashionable. So you'd entertain downstairs while your children were asleep upstairs. Which, so far as I can see, is no better supervised, but maybe that's just me. And, besides, even given the time and tools to do it, it would have rendered the excercise pointless if they'd had to cook for themselves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Of course it is better supervised. It obviously is. The children are upstairs, you are downstairs. For anybody to get to the children, that person has to go past you and all your guests without being noticed.
If a child starts being ill or something, you will most likely hear it or notice it in some kind of fashion.

None of these things are possible if you are some distance away from the children, in a totally different building, in a crowded noisy restuarant, in a town that you have never been to before, where you don't know many of the faces at all.

JinjaNinja · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Glyn

If they wanted to go on holiday and go out by themselves perhaps they should have left the children with a relative whilst they went away?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But what if they wanted to go on holiday with the children, but one evening, while they were asleep, wanted a break. And went to a restaurant?

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No, that what you don't do when your a parent of a 3 year old and two 2 year olds.

You downstairs in your own home is VERY diffrent from a hotel with multiple exit points, floors, strangers walking about, in another country and not even being able to see the hotel from where you are.

<hr noshade size="1">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anonymous · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Glyn

But isn't that something you forgo when you become a parent?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not always, no.
Lots of people want to keep some semblance of their life when they become a parent.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
If they wanted to go on holiday and go out by themselves perhaps they should have left the children with a relative whilst they went away?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But what if they wanted to go on holiday with the children, but one evening, while they were asleep, wanted a break. And went to a restaurant?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I know soon as I was born my parents rarely went out like that, if they did I either stayed over at grandparents, or they stayed over.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But, back when I was small (and presumably when you were), dinner parties were very fashionable. So you'd entertain downstairs while your children were asleep upstairs. Which, so far as I can see, is no better supervised, but maybe that's just me. And, besides, even given the time and tools to do it, it would have rendered the excercise pointless if they'd had to cook for themselves.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
1. Maybe so, I'm just going on what my parents did, my mom stopped working to look after us. They didn't go out much, or someone to look after us was arranged. They always put me and my siblings first.

2.As far as I'm concerned you don't get breaks once you become a parent, its a 24hour 'job' from birth onwards to 16-19. Why not have used the hotel babysitting facility? It was there to be used.

3.Yes they were, and I do remeber my parents having them every so often, but they'd check us on a regular basis.
No better supervised, but then its the same as sitting downstairs while your children sleep and I think 100% of parents have done that.

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Alex · May 2007

Good to see I can still create proper OT discussions with a Daily Mail-esque topic title.

For what it's worth, I don't think they should face anything more than living the rest of thier lives knowing that they lost thier daughter because they were too tight to put the kids into the Hotel's childcare.

Leaving the children like that is unbelievably irresponsible, and it's not just a case of a heap of "what-if"s, the kid is missing and these cases never have a happy ending. Ever.

I really do pity the parents. The guilt must be unbearable.

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Big Red S · May 2007

1) Fair enough. Your parents were obviously in a better financial position than mine. And, i'd suspect, than the majority. Presumably not than the parent's we're currently scrutinising, though.
And different people have different ideas of how children should be brought up. Having put them to bed and left them to sleep, it's entirely reasonable to presume that nothing bad's going to happen. Kidnapping's about the only bad thing that might have happened, but could have been stopped by the parent's presence.

2) You cannot attend to your child constantly until the age of 16. Beyond about 8 it starts doing bad things to them.

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Anonymous · May 2007

1) I wouldnt say massivly better situation. My dad had to do a lot of overtime to fill the void, but thats the choice they made when I was born.

2) Attending to them yeah, but been there in the background for them still looking after them a significant amount I'd say, but then I'm just going by my experience.

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JinjaNinja · May 2007

End of the day it was a totaly selfish thing to do. There was no other factors to the situation other then they wanted to go out, They also didn't want to pay for a babysitter for what ever reason. (They blatently earn enough for it) They also must know that now.

<hr noshade size="1">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Big Red S · May 2007

I do wonder how different people's opinions were before this all happened.

Of course! They were exactly the same!

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JinjaNinja · May 2007

Well I wouldn't have left 3 very young children alone in a hotel room.

If thats what you mean.

<hr noshade size="1">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
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Alex · May 2007

Avi, you don't leave children that young on thier own. You just don't do it.

<hr noshade size="1"><center>When asked what we do it for I didn't have an answer until I remembered the faces.
It's for looking over at your best mates and seeing the same grin you're wearing and knowing why. It's for looking back on that, and being able to grin again.
Mail me if you think i've got it wrong</center>

Big Red S · May 2007

I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm not saying I'd do it.
I'm saying I can understand why they did it. Especially without the benefit of hindsight that we've all now got.

And I was meaning people's opinions changing, as I believe they have, from something akin to "That's a pretty fcking stupid thing to do" to "ZOMGZORZ! PROSECUTE THEM! HOW COULD THEY DOOOOO THAT TO THEIR CHILDREN??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?"
But, obviously, there's now no way to know either way.

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README
[url=mailto:avisforwardedemails@gmail.com?subject=MBUK Moderation]E-mail me if you think i've moderated something wrong[/url] (but don't change the subject or I won't get it)

JinjaNinja · May 2007

TBH when i first heard about it from a workmate i was enraged by the parents, calling for prosecution etc... But then what would that achive? Who would that help? Certainly not the two kids they've still got.
I still haven't read one news report about this yet, mainly as i just don't care enough. Children get raped and killed infront of there parents in so many places, and thats not through their parents being stupid.

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NeillyB

I used some blueberry flavoured one we got from the free clinic once

NEVER AGAIN

My penis was blue for 3 days
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Madeline: Should her parents have left her

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