Madeline: Should her parents have left her

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Matt

How have they changed? Avi isn't 40 and neither am I.
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My sister's 7. She's fine in the house on her own.

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TE · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

There was a victim, and so there must have been a crime, musn't there?

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Thats a right load of crap, sorry, but you could say that about anything.

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Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TE

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

There was a victim, and so there must have been a crime, musn't there?

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Thats a right load of crap, sorry, but you could say that about anything.

<hr noshade size="1"><div align="left">uber sexy <s>laydeez</s> landeez </div id="left"><div align="right">HDHS</div id="right"><hr noshade size="1">
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</sarc> is the key.

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Big Red S · May 2007

I do wonder what I've done for you to have such a low opinion of me as to think I meant that.

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Matt I don't see that there is anything unacceptable about leaving your child alone in an apartment whilst you go out for dinner.
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The kid was 3 years old and was left with 2 babies.

Leaving a 7 year old or similar on their own I wouldn't call negligent, although maybe a little silly. An older child has their self preservation instincts about them, and has a half decent grasp of the world/house around them.

A 3 year old is in no state to be given that responsibility though, let alone the added weight of having the two even younger siblings 'under her care'.

Say something like an electrical fire occured, a 7 year old should at least know to get out of the house, maybe even to dial 999. A 3 year old wouldn't have that experience, and certainly wouldn't be capable of helping the younger children. That's why it was unbelieveable negligence.

Leaving children alone when they are starting to mature is one thing, but effectively leaving 3 babies in a house alone is idiocy

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clarkson · May 2007

it was stupid to leave them alone, but to be fair, hasnt every parent at some point in their lives?? but no, i dont think they should be prosecuted. who would be the prosecuting party?? and in that case, most parents should if they l;eave their child. its not exactly a crime is it??!!

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
And the weak parenting is a result of what? Expecting the government to either have legislated against everything bad, or have some scheme through which things can be rectified. And you can't blame the parents for doing that, really, the government _have_ legislated against most imaginable things in one form or another, and they have all sorts of schemes whereby you can do all sorts of stupid things, and then get bailed out by the government. All while complaining about high taxes and a nanny state...

Expecting the government to fix this is exactly the wrong idea, IMO. 'course, exactly what 'this' is is a matter of discussion. Thus far, 'this' seems to be something that any civilised society would leave as a fairly private matter.
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How can "this" be left as a private matter, yet the government still be expected to 'pick up the tab' as it were?

I'm not sure what the weak parenting is a result of. Perhaps the growing proportion of parents time spent working, and less time spent with the children. This would lead to the children being at childminders or equivalent, who cannot instill discipline in the same way as a parent can.
It could also possibly be a result of the tax benefits that come with having a child, so that some people have children when they otherwise may not have, due to the increased likelihood of them obtaining permanent housing etc.

Big Red S · May 2007

Clarkson, get a new keyboard. I'm presuming the multiple-punctuation thing is your keyboard being broken rather than you just being a tw[url][/url]at?

I think that, certainly with hindsight, they were wrong to leave the child there on her own. I'm not sure it was much more dangerous, assuming the stories being bandied about by the media are true, than leaving a child/some children unattended in the same house for 20 mins at a time, though.
I really don't think there's any reason on earth why they need be prosecuted.

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clarkson · May 2007

if the government has to manage the future, the people in that future are the children of today, so to an extent the government should be able to set guidelines on parenting, especially when discipline is concerned. This is in order to prevent "yobbish behaviour" - vandalism and the like.

The government-parent thing is another subject entirely though.
[/quote]bollox will it. telling parents how to bring their kids up will only piss people off. the 'guidelines' will develop into hard suggestions and then become law for which the penalty is jail or somethibng stupid. to prevent yobbish behaviour as you put it, schools need to be hardened up and people need ot be taught to respect each other and peoples things.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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jamiejim · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Perhaps the growing proportion of parents time spent working, and less time spent with the children.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree, and therfore think that the issue is more of a social one. Prosecuting people isnt going to help here.

Mike Skinner · May 2007

i say again, 3 years old! that is not old enough to care for yourself.

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roryf · May 2007

I certainly don't think that they should be prosecuted. I think that what they are going through at the moment is punishment enough.

I'm sure that children are left alone like this quite often (I'm not sure that it's the correct thing to do, but I'm not going into that right now).
This seems to be one unlucky occurence, out of the many times that children are left unsupervised. The media have helped to amplify the story.

clarkson · May 2007

sorry BRS, typing fast and the 'multiple punctuation' is in shock to some peoples responses thats all.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson
bollox will it. telling parents how to bring their kids up will only piss people off. the 'guidelines' will develop into hard suggestions and then become law for which the penalty is jail or somethibng stupid. to prevent yobbish behaviour as you put it, schools need to be hardened up and people need ot be taught to respect each other and peoples things.

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So, how do you propose these things that you suggest are carried out, without involving the government taking an element of control!?

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf
How can "this" be left as a private matter, yet the government still be expected to 'pick up the tab' as it were?
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Pick up the tab in what way? Aside from cooperation between British and Portugese police, I don't see why the government need get involved. They run this country, they're not childminers.
I don't think the family are really asking the government for any support. But I honestly don't know. It's not something that's interested me enough to read much more than the relevant headlines. Of course the media are asking the government to sort it out - they want the government to sort everything out so they can fill their comment pages with details of how they should have done it better.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I'm not sure what the weak parenting is a result of. Perhaps the growing proportion of parents time spent working, and less time spent with the children. This would lead to the children being at childminders or equivalent, who cannot instill discipline in the same way as a parent can.
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Despite there being a growing number of parents taking time off work to look after children? It's not been growing for long, but the growth of nurseries has been in decline almost since it was decided that we needed billions of them.
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It could also possibly be a result of the tax benefits that come with having a child, so that some people have children when they otherwise may not have, due to the increased likelihood of them obtaining permanent housing etc.
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I like to think that any people who do that represent an infitesimally small proportion of the population of this country. We might still have a lower class, but they're not that stupid.

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clarkson · May 2007

the parents could perhaps have been giving the child some responsibility to make her feel important and loved. making someone this age feel loved and important helps them develop into someone with respect for people and gives them a certain amount of responsibility. it was wrong to leave her, but it must have happened countless times before; just this happened to be 'unlucky'.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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Big Red S · May 2007

3 year olds have nothing at all to gain from being given responsibility.

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clarkson · May 2007

roryf - hardedning up schools has nothing to do with parents. fair enough, parents can help kids have more respect for people, but the school environment is more ideal as the child is surrounded by people anyway. if government funded schools to make people better as a person rather than to meet education targets, society would be far better off for it!!

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
My GT
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clarkson · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

3 year olds have nothing at all to gain from being given responsibility.

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being given responsibility from an early age builds their sef-efficacy and self-worth.

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Big Red S · May 2007

Have you ever seen a three year old?

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Pick up the tab in what way? Aside from cooperation between British and Portugese police, I don't see why the government need get involved. They run this country, they're not childminers.
I don't think the family are really asking the government for any support. But I honestly don't know. It's not something that's interested me enough to read much more than the relevant headlines. Of course the media are asking the government to sort it out - they want the government to sort everything out so they can fill their comment pages with details of how they should have done it better.
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By "this", I assumed (obviously wrongly) that you meant the government-parent issue. With my tab statement, I mean coping with the consequences that come from having an increasing number of ASBO-type people in society, yet still trying to provide a country management service that is going to keep the rest of us happy.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
Despite there being a growing number of parents taking time off work to look after children? It's not been growing for long, but the growth of nurseries has been in decline almost since it was decided that we needed billions of them.
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I was unaware of this growing number. I'm not sure that the total increase in time off work that these parents have taken, is of greater value than the amount of time with family that they have lost due to increasing work commitments. Infact, I think it's quite the opposite.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
I like to think that any people who do that represent an infitesimally small proportion of the population of this country. We might still have a lower class, but they're not that stupid.
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I merely suggested it as a possibility - I don't actually know of any real occurences myself. Only what I have read in the media, and we all know that that isn't always 100% truthful.

clarkson · May 2007

wtf has seeing a 3 year old got to do with it? and do you know, basically, how the human mind works?

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

roryf - hardedning up schools has nothing to do with parents. fair enough, parents can help kids have more respect for people, but the school environment is more ideal as the child is surrounded by people anyway. if government funded schools to make people better as a person rather than to meet education targets, society would be far better off for it!!
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Supposedly, schools try to achieve this with their Citizenship classes. And they turn out to be a bit of a waste of time. Are you aware of the workload that teachers are already under? The hours that they have to provide a childcare service to their community? (Funnily enough, so parents can fulfil their work commitments.)

Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Matt I don't see that there is anything unacceptable about leaving your child alone in an apartment whilst you go out for dinner.
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The kid was 3 years old and was left with 2 babies.

Leaving a 7 year old or similar on their own I wouldn't call negligent, although maybe a little silly. An older child has their self preservation instincts about them, and has a half decent grasp of the world/house around them.

A 3 year old is in no state to be given that responsibility though, let alone the added weight of having the two even younger siblings 'under her care'.

Say something like an electrical fire occured, a 7 year old should at least know to get out of the house, maybe even to dial 999. A 3 year old wouldn't have that experience, and certainly wouldn't be capable of helping the younger children. That's why it was unbelieveable negligence.

Leaving children alone when they are starting to mature is one thing, but effectively leaving 3 babies in a house alone is idiocy

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I'm sure it sounds terrible in your mind, but in reality the kids will have all been lying asleep in cots, unable to get into trouble with knifes or run away or whatever. The 3 year old will not have been 'given responsibility', she's simply in the house at the same time.

I agree with you on the electrical fire, but that isn't what happened.

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
3 year olds have nothing at all to gain from being given responsibility.
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On the contrary, a small amount of responsibility, perhaps for their own toys, or for a goldfish as a pet, is good for them. This responsiblity can grow with age.

I think that a three year old being expected to care for two babies is over the top though.

clarkson · May 2007

yes, i agree that teachers are under a lot of pressure. but by cutting the useless citizenship classes and other worthless lessons, teachers could focus more on actually improving people rather than just wasting time with citizenship classes and the like.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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climber · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

3 year olds have nothing at all to gain from being given responsibility. Well said.

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being given responsibility from an early age builds their sef-efficacy and self-worth.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
My GT
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/1315543/
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A 3yo can barely wipe it`s own arse never mind accept any responsibility.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><center>Originally posted by Chasealex</center>
If you'd paid more attention at school and spent less time playing with your toes you might understand the subject at hand.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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Matt · May 2007

What the hell are you lot on about? Is this the same topic?

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Chaparral

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

By "this", I assumed (obviously wrongly) that you meant the government-parent issue. With my tab statement, I mean coping with the consequences that come from having an increasing number of ASBO-type people in society, yet still trying to provide a country management service that is going to keep the rest of us happy.
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No, by 'this' I meant the whole kidnapped toddler fiasco. I should probably have been less ambiguous.
I do think that parents need freedom to bring their children up as they see fit when they're under their care. And I think that schools should be obliged to school their charges, rather than just educate their pupils. I don't think the former works without the latter. And, of course, there needs to be an end to the over-PC society. It is coming though, albeit rather slowly.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I was unaware of this growing number. I'm not sure that the total increase in time off work that these parents have taken, is of greater value than the amount of time with family that they have lost due to increasing work commitments. Infact, I think it's quite the opposite.
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Figures released by the ONS a couple of weeks back, i think. Basically they stated that the growth in nursery usage has been in decline since the late nineties/early 2000s, and have this year got to the point where the growth is negative. It was by quite a proportion, though, if I remember correctly. You have to bear in mind that one arguably positive side of the over-PC society is how easy it is to get time off work for all sorts of things.

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jamiejim · May 2007

I agree that responsibility is a good thing. But the child wouldnt of even been aware of any "responsibility" while asleep. I also dont think that a hotel room in a foreign country is the ideal environment to "builds their sef-efficacy and self-worth"

Madeline: Should her parents have left her

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