Madeline: Should her parents have left her

roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

yes, i agree that teachers are under a lot of pressure. but by cutting the useless citizenship classes and other worthless lessons, teachers could focus more on actually improving people rather than just wasting time with citizenship classes and the like.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The flipping citizenship classes are how the schools are trying to "improve" people FFS! It's one of the only ways they can attempt it, under this government.

Different punishment methods may be more effective, but thats a different subject altogether.

clarkson · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
3 year olds have nothing at all to gain from being given responsibility.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On the contrary, a small amount of responsibility, perhaps for their own toys, or for a goldfish as a pet, is good for them. This responsiblity can grow with age.

I think that a three year old being expected to care for two babies is over the top though.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">seconded, i agreee that havoing to care for 2 other kids is ott.

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Oldmacdonald · May 2007

No, they shouldn't be prosecuted.

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clarkson · May 2007

yes but the citizenship classes last for about 20minutes. well at the school my college is on anyway. harldy an effective use of time?

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson
yes but the citizenship classes last for about 20minutes. well at the school my college is on anyway. harldy an effective use of time?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So how, under current laws, do you think the schools should use those 20 minutes then? What way could be more effective at "improving" people? (Although the citizenship classes appear to be innefective, I'm not sure at the moment what other options are available.)

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

On the contrary, a small amount of responsibility, perhaps for their own toys, or for a goldfish as a pet, is good for them. This responsiblity can grow with age.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But that's a very fake responsibility. They are responsible for a pet or their toys under the supervision of a parent.
And it only works if it's consistent. Occasionally saying 'this week you're responsible for the cat' to a three year old does nothing. Especially if you then go away for the week, so can't remind them.

No, that's not meant to be a comparison of what really happened. It's meant to be an, admittedly rather bad, explanation of the difference between giving a three year old responsibility and making a three year old responsible for something.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

wtf has seeing a 3 year old got to do with it? and do you know, basically, how the human mind works?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because you were talking about the benefits to be had of leaving a three year old in charge of her two younger siblings for an evening. Or so I thought?
I have a vague idea of how the humand mind works, yes. Certainly enough to know that it's different when you are three to when you are thirty.

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clarkson · May 2007

to be fair, this kind of thing needs to be started at an earlier age, say, when they start school!? at secondary school its too late really, kids have formed their social groups and its only rarely that they chane from a criminal/anti-saocial way at this stage.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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euan_333 · May 2007

Citezenship, at my school, has proved so ineffective that it will not be featuring next term. You mostly learn about:-

- Poverty.
- Voting.
- And watching "Supersize Me".

Load of shit really...

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
But that's a very fake responsibility. They are responsible for a pet or their toys under the supervision of a parent.
And it only works if it's consistent. Occasionally saying 'this week you're responsible for the cat' to a three year old does nothing. Especially if you then go away for the week, so can't remind them.

No, that's not meant to be a comparison of what really happened. It's meant to be an, admittedly rather bad, explanation of the difference between giving a three year old responsibility and making a three year old responsible for something.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The responsibility/responsible thing is open to interpretation. A pet system instils the idea of caring for others at an early age, even if it is supervised by a parent. Every little bit helps.

Does it not go without saying that it only works if it's consistent? How would they be taught any idea of responsibility without being consistent about it? What responsiblity in the world is done well, but inconsistently?

Caring for something has to be done regularly, thus consistently.

At three, almost everything you do must be supervised by a parent. Your parent dresses you. Do you think then, that you parent shouldn't help you dress at all? If they hadn't helped you, you'd have no idea how to do it when you had to do it yourself. The same goes for responsiblity - if your parents (or someone) hasn't taught you to be responsible, you'll have no idea how to be responsible.

clarkson · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because you were talking about the benefits to be had of leaving a three year old in charge of her two younger siblings for an evening. Or so I thought?
I have a vague idea of how the humand mind works, yes. Certainly enough to know that it's different when you are three to when you are thirty.

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[/quote]ok ok, leaving her in charge of her two sisters/brothers was ott, but that wasnt what i was reffering to. i was suggesting that giving someone the responsibility of something at a young age helps them develoip better; improving sef-efficacy etc.
whats 30 got to do with anything? i didnt bring that in. responsibility at 30 is an annoyance in soime ways rather than helping you to develop.

I said hit the brakes not the tree!!
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Matt · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Matt

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Matt I don't see that there is anything unacceptable about leaving your child alone in an apartment whilst you go out for dinner.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The kid was 3 years old and was left with 2 babies.

Leaving a 7 year old or similar on their own I wouldn't call negligent, although maybe a little silly. An older child has their self preservation instincts about them, and has a half decent grasp of the world/house around them.

A 3 year old is in no state to be given that responsibility though, let alone the added weight of having the two even younger siblings 'under her care'.

Say something like an electrical fire occured, a 7 year old should at least know to get out of the house, maybe even to dial 999. A 3 year old wouldn't have that experience, and certainly wouldn't be capable of helping the younger children. That's why it was unbelieveable negligence.

Leaving children alone when they are starting to mature is one thing, but effectively leaving 3 babies in a house alone is idiocy

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I'm sure it sounds terrible in your mind, but in reality the kids will have all been lying asleep in cots, unable to get into trouble with knifes or run away or whatever. The 3 year old will not have been 'given responsibility', she's simply in the house at the same time.

I agree with you on the electrical fire, but that isn't what happened.

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Chaparral
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Someone please read that.

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Chaparral

Big Red S · May 2007

I did, and you know I agree with that. (except it's "knives").

But we've got embroiled in other discussions, as is the way here

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Big Red S · May 2007

Roryf and Clarkson, please bear in mind that I'm talking about this phrase, presuming 'the parents' are the parents of the kid who was kidnapped:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

the parents could perhaps have been giving the child some responsibility to make her feel important and loved.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

okay? That is why I felt the need to mention it needed to be consistent (since this example clearly isn't). That is why I felt the need to ask if you'd ever seen a three year old. etc.

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roryf · May 2007

Thankyou for clarifying. Some of your replies can be rather ambiguous.

Big Red S · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roryf

At three, almost everything you do must be supervised by a parent. Your parent dresses you. Do you think then, that you parent shouldn't help you dress at all?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No. What did I say to give you that impression?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by clarkson

whats 30 got to do with anything? i didnt bring that in. responsibility at 30 is an annoyance in soime ways rather than helping you to develop.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was saying that I knew enough about the way the humand mind works to know that it changes between the ages of three and thirty. I wasn't talking about responsibility at the age of thirty. I also wasn't talking about bananas or the price of fish.

Now, how about we stop making up hidden meanings and actually read what's posted?

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

but what about the electrical fires. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T FORGET THE ELECTRICAL FIRES!!!

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Big Red S · May 2007

It's alright, I've got them covered.

*pats oversized electromagnet with dodgy wiring*

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roryf · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S
No. What did I say to give you that impression?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It appears to be a rather bad analagy of the "fake responsibility" thing. You said caring for a pet was a fake responsibility as parents supervised it.

I mean to demonstrate that parents supervising things doesn't make them fake. It is just helping to teach skills for later life. Responsibility is being taught for later life. Dressing onesself is being taught for later life.

Big Red S · May 2007

I meant fake as in not real. In that the child isn't really responsible for anything, they're just made to think they are.

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roryf · May 2007

Yes, but it teaches the idea of responsibility, even though it may not be "real" responsibility.

It begins to educate the child about what responsibility involves. It's all relative to their life experience at that age.

Big Red S · May 2007

Yes. I know.

But that's not what Clarkson said, and it's certainly not what was happening in the room when she was kidnapped.

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rubber side up · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

Clarkson, get a new keyboard. I'm presuming the multiple-punctuation thing is your keyboard being broken rather than you just being a tw[url][/url]at?
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I wish i had a V10 · May 2007

personally, as other people said, the parents are going through enough anyway. however some of that is probably them realising they are to blame and that is was a pretty thick thing to do.

the media just needs to piss off and stop using someone elses distress to sell newspapers. they probably realise there is bugger all chance of her turning up, they couldnt care less for the family.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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UH DH · May 2007

What if she never went missing?

1) Madeline never existed. Her identity and photos are all made up. The parents just want media coverage for some sick twisted reason.
2) She did exist but she died. Parents go off the rails and make up a kidnapping story.
3) They killed her, disposed of the body and tried to cover it up.
4) <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">whyamihere says:
Or I'm using her to polish my co<s></s>ck right now...
whyamihere says:
Mmmm, slidy.
I need a new name says:
its nice to share
whyamihere says:
*Looks on royal mail site for shipping costs on violated 3 year olds*<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I suspect 3 or 4.

QUERTY QUERTY QUERTY

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JinjaNinja

"I cant read and I cant spell doo dah, doo dah"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Big Red S · May 2007

Back in your box!

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Marshall · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Alex

The child clearly isn't going to turn up alive, should her parents be facing prosecution for leaving her like that?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In this cotton-wool world we live in now? I think you already know what the answers going to be.

My opinion, I think they're going to hell and back right now, any sort of prosecution is just going to be a slap in the face to parents that are already devastated, and to be honest are going to be meantally scarred for the rest of thier lives. I don't think any court in any country can hand down a punishment less severe than knowing you've lost a young one due to your own parental negligence...

Marshall
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ElephantMan · May 2007

Can't say I've read anything between the first page and this page tbh, but I'm going to give you my opinion anyway:

The way I see it, they left THREE children, who are not capable of looking after themselves in an apartment that wasn't even their home, in a foreign country, where the likelihood is that they knew nothing about the locals.
As the parents, they are responsible for looking after, protecting and caring for those children. If they leave them unattended deliberately, how is that anything OTHER than negligence?

If that little girl dies, which I think it's fairly safe to say is probably already the case, the parents are indirectly responsible if you ask me. Obviously, it's not their fault that there is someone out there willing to kidnap/kill/rape a young girl, but it IS their fault that that person had the opportunity.
Hell, whoever it was might not even have noticed that there were two even younger kids asleep in another room. For all we know there could be 3 missing if he had......

The parents are responsible for presenting the kidnapper with the opportunity. Leaving three children unattended who are incapable of looking after themselves... how is that not a crime? What possible reason is there that they shouldn't be prosecuted? IMO they deserve to be prosecuted, I don't care for the amount of grief they are experiencing. It's their fault.

Big Red S · May 2007

Why prosecute them? What good comes out of it?

And I'd really advise you at least skim the other pages.

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Marshall · May 2007

Yeah, I've not skimmed them sorry, but I'm guessing you're thinking along the same lines as me: prosecuting them won't bring her back or do he other children any good either...

Marshall
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ElephantMan · May 2007

I'm not sure how "manslaughter" is legally defined, but I'm fairly sure it's something along the lines of "killing without implied intent," which is what I see this as. They didn't mean for anything to happen, and 9 times out of 10, there wouldn't have been a problem. But now, because of their actions someone has (probably) ended up dead.

Supposing a mechanic was mending a part of a car, but he leaves off a bolt when putting something back on. Again, 90% of the time, there wouldn't be a problem, but this time, someone crashes and dies because of his shoddy work.
I think it's fairly safe to say that if it's tracked back to him, he'll be prosecuted. No doubt, he would feel utterly terrible and never do it again and the prosecution would be an "slap in the face"....
I know that this is all my opinion etc, but I'm sure you can see the comparison I'm trying to draw here?

Madeline: Should her parents have left her

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