Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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Hamas telling porkies and Israel telling porkies are not mutually exclusive.2
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Backing them as in you think they are telling porkies or you think they're telling the truth on this?bikes_and_dogs said:
If I was a betting man and was forced to have a large wager on who was telling porkies, I would be backing Hamas. Time will tell and I will be eating a large portion of Humble Pie if I've backed the wrong horse.TheBigBean said:Israel have accused Hamas of hiding evidence of the hospital being a military site.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.0
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I’m sorry but I don’t agree as in my career as a nurse I have reported other staffs unprofessional behaviour and on one occasion reported a manager for possible corruption.pblakeney said:
My wife is a nurse. It is well known that those receiving the biggest punishment are the whistleblowers. Upside down system if you ask me.bikes_and_dogs said:Also in the news - incompetence, laziness and quite possibly corruption in our public services. Particularly the Police and NHS workers
As a child I was taught a simple mantra "Don't be a grass". With the hindsight of a long life, I realise that it is a fundamentally flawed ideal.
Until honest, hardworking public servants are empowered to call out folk that don't don't do their jobs properly, then the reputation of the vast majority of them will continue to be tarnished by chancers that rely on Omerta.
Lucy Letby, Stephen Lawrence etc.
Yes this might have made me unpopular with some people but I don’t believe it effected my career.0 -
The NHS is a huge operation so it is easy to accept that other experiences can and will happen.webboo said:
I’m sorry but I don’t agree as in my career as a nurse I have reported other staffs unprofessional behaviour and on one occasion reported a manager for possible corruption.pblakeney said:
My wife is a nurse. It is well known that those receiving the biggest punishment are the whistleblowers. Upside down system if you ask me.bikes_and_dogs said:Also in the news - incompetence, laziness and quite possibly corruption in our public services. Particularly the Police and NHS workers
As a child I was taught a simple mantra "Don't be a grass". With the hindsight of a long life, I realise that it is a fundamentally flawed ideal.
Until honest, hardworking public servants are empowered to call out folk that don't don't do their jobs properly, then the reputation of the vast majority of them will continue to be tarnished by chancers that rely on Omerta.
Lucy Letby, Stephen Lawrence etc.
Yes this might have made me unpopular with some people but I don’t believe it effected my career.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I wouldn't place a bet either way.bikes_and_dogs said:
If I was a betting man and was forced to have a large wager on who was telling porkies, I would be backing Hamas. Time will tell and I will be eating a large portion of Humble Pie if I've backed the wrong horse.TheBigBean said:Israel have accused Hamas of hiding evidence of the hospital being a military site.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
pblakeney said:
The NHS is a huge operation so it is easy to accept that other experiences can and will happen.webboo said:
I’m sorry but I don’t agree as in my career as a nurse I have reported other staffs unprofessional behaviour and on one occasion reported a manager for possible corruption.pblakeney said:
My wife is a nurse. It is well known that those receiving the biggest punishment are the whistleblowers. Upside down system if you ask me.bikes_and_dogs said:Also in the news - incompetence, laziness and quite possibly corruption in our public services. Particularly the Police and NHS workers
As a child I was taught a simple mantra "Don't be a grass". With the hindsight of a long life, I realise that it is a fundamentally flawed ideal.
Until honest, hardworking public servants are empowered to call out folk that don't don't do their jobs properly, then the reputation of the vast majority of them will continue to be tarnished by chancers that rely on Omerta.
Lucy Letby, Stephen Lawrence etc.
Yes this might have made me unpopular with some people but I don’t believe it effected my career.
A few headline cases have been a running feature in Private Eye where whistleblowers have been left high and dry. Phil Hammond has been campaigning since the BRI baby deaths saying that a proper whistleblowers' charter would prevent such things in many cases.0 -
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.0 -
Well yes look at how the people were treated when they flagged the potential mass murder lucy woman.briantrumpet said:pblakeney said:
The NHS is a huge operation so it is easy to accept that other experiences can and will happen.webboo said:
I’m sorry but I don’t agree as in my career as a nurse I have reported other staffs unprofessional behaviour and on one occasion reported a manager for possible corruption.pblakeney said:
My wife is a nurse. It is well known that those receiving the biggest punishment are the whistleblowers. Upside down system if you ask me.bikes_and_dogs said:Also in the news - incompetence, laziness and quite possibly corruption in our public services. Particularly the Police and NHS workers
As a child I was taught a simple mantra "Don't be a grass". With the hindsight of a long life, I realise that it is a fundamentally flawed ideal.
Until honest, hardworking public servants are empowered to call out folk that don't don't do their jobs properly, then the reputation of the vast majority of them will continue to be tarnished by chancers that rely on Omerta.
Lucy Letby, Stephen Lawrence etc.
Yes this might have made me unpopular with some people but I don’t believe it effected my career.
A few headline cases have been a running feature in Private Eye where whistleblowers have been left high and dry. Phil Hammond has been campaigning since the BRI baby deaths saying that a proper whistleblowers' charter would prevent such things in many cases.
Incentives are all wrong with this stuff.0 -
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar0 -
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar0 -
A paramedic has run 100km (62 miles) in one day to raise awareness of diabetes after her brother was diagnosed with the condition.
Megan Wiltshire, from Yate, ran through Portishead, Clevedon, Chew Magna, Saltford and Bristol on 14 November to raise £1,000 for Diabetes UK.
It also marks 100 years since Frederick Banting and John Macleod won the Nobel Prize for discovering insulin.
Ms Wiltshire said she was "a little bit sore", but feeling "really good".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67425842
It's great when people turn a negative to a positive.1 -
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject0 -
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.0 -
I am a bit Old Testament on these things so if somebody firebombs your cities then you can do whatever you like to theirs.TheBigBean said:
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.
If somebody vows to wipe your country off the map and then pops over the border and makes a start in the most barbaric way possible then unsurprisingly I believe they can do whatever they want to stop it from happening again.
Personally I would slow up the civilian suffering just to keep allies onside.
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I get that, I just don't understand why you don't get the reverse.surrey_commuter said:
I am a bit Old Testament on these things so if somebody firebombs your cities then you can do whatever you like to theirs.TheBigBean said:
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.
If somebody vows to wipe your country off the map and then pops over the border and makes a start in the most barbaric way possible then unsurprisingly I believe they can do whatever they want to stop it from happening again.
Personally I would slow up the civilian suffering just to keep allies onside.0 -
Yes I mean you've just given a justification for Hamas' massacre of civilians.surrey_commuter said:
I am a bit Old Testament on these things so if somebody firebombs your cities then you can do whatever you like to theirs.TheBigBean said:
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.
If somebody vows to wipe your country off the map and then pops over the border and makes a start in the most barbaric way possible then unsurprisingly I believe they can do whatever they want to stop it from happening again.
Personally I would slow up the civilian suffering just to keep allies onside.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
Look, the reality is you cannot wage a war, especially in a densely populated environment, where civilians won't be killed. Doubly so when the defenders use civilians as shields.
That's why we really want to be avoiding war etc.
I think we can all agree that the IDF at best care very little whether Palestinian civilians are in the way, and given the tactics they know Hamas use, they'll assume there will be some serious Palestinian collateral.
It is unrealistic to expect the IDF in this context to be even be able to avoid a lot of civilian deaths even if they were bothered and the Hamas tactic is to at the very least highlight as many of these as possible for maximum international outrage at IDF tactics, and at worse is to throw civilians under the IDF bus to generate that outrage.
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It's not that hard to avoid driving a tank into a hospital.0
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There is enough historical evidence from previous skirmishes that Hamas deliberately use hospital as bases for certain military stuff for exactly this reason.TheBigBean said:It's not that hard to avoid driving a tank into a hospital.
Whether the IDF intelligence is right in this instance none of us here know, but let's not pretend that Hamas doesn't use tactics to generate outrage at IDF tactics. That's a key feature of the way they "defend"
Separately we know that Hamas the most sophisticated tunnel network ever seen for this kind of thing, and those tunnels run under civilian buildings including schools hospitals and homes.
Hamas are not concerned about putting their own people in the way, and they will aim maximise the international outrage if they are.0 -
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/17/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news
NY times journalists confirming there is a tunnel running into the hospital.
Hamas really view civilians on both sides as a tool to generate reactions - either goading IDF into doing something that will draw the rest of the arab world in by graphically and brutally murdering innocent people, or weakening western support of the IDF by putting Palestinian civilians in the way of IDF bombs and bullets.
Really hard to disentangle their tactics with moral condemnation of IDF actions or otherwise > it's not like Hamas are going out of their way to defend refugee routes from IDF attacks are they?
Instead they'll run their own troops through the refugee routes and make sure they have a camera on when the IDF spot 'em and miss, collecting 5 Palestinian families in the process.0 -
In my world there is a world of difference between killing as many civilians as possible in as barbaric manner as possible and on the other not taking enough care to minimise civilian casualtiesDeVlaeminck said:
Yes I mean you've just given a justification for Hamas' massacre of civilians.surrey_commuter said:
I am a bit Old Testament on these things so if somebody firebombs your cities then you can do whatever you like to theirs.TheBigBean said:
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.
If somebody vows to wipe your country off the map and then pops over the border and makes a start in the most barbaric way possible then unsurprisingly I believe they can do whatever they want to stop it from happening again.
Personally I would slow up the civilian suffering just to keep allies onside.0 -
Which falls a long way short of justifying a tank in a hospital under international law.rick_chasey said:https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/17/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news
NY times journalists confirming there is a tunnel running into the hospital.0 -
if somebody does not want to wipe you out then you are not allowed to do anything to stop them?TheBigBean said:
I get that, I just don't understand why you don't get the reverse.surrey_commuter said:
I am a bit Old Testament on these things so if somebody firebombs your cities then you can do whatever you like to theirs.TheBigBean said:
They did put the Nazis on trial though. I'll defer to your expertise on this point though.surrey_commuter said:
I was trying to remove the blame from the civilian population for electing and supporting a barbaric leadership.TheBigBean said:
None of which will help explain tanks rolling through a hospital while staff are interrogated at gun point. You know that.surrey_commuter said:
The lack of civil unrest suggests their treatment of their own population is not much better than their treatment of Israeli civilians.rick_chasey said:
It's hardly going to be treated like a crime scene with independent investigators.TheBigBean said:The point being whether they have scarpered with the incriminating evidence or not, if you roll tanks into a hospital, the evidence should still be there. Otherwise, you're just rolling tanks into a hospital.
The reality is is that Hamas success hinges on two things, one of which is getting the arab world so incensed by Israeli behaviour that they join in.
Hamas has also shown it doesn't care at all for civilian deaths, so it would be entirely in keeping with their strategy to generate as much outrage as possible to run some of their military operations out of hospitals.
If they were decent chaps you would expect the locals to be asking for a seat in the 300 miles of bomb shelters they kindly dug.
Or a lottery with the lucky winners getting to stay at the 4 Seasons in Qatar
In 1944 the allies did not stop at the German border and negotiate a peace treaty as they wanted to inflict a heavy defeat on the entire German population to deter them from doing it again.
I feel much the same way about the Israeli response to the barbaric murder of it's civilians.
I also know that we will never agree upon this subject
Also, doesn't your argument work in reverse, that Israel elected a bunch of right wing loons, so can't complain if they have a disgruntled population on their doorstep?
Also, as a result of WWII, the laws of engagement changed.
If somebody vows to wipe your country off the map and then pops over the border and makes a start in the most barbaric way possible then unsurprisingly I believe they can do whatever they want to stop it from happening again.
Personally I would slow up the civilian suffering just to keep allies onside.0 -
what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.pangolin said:I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.
I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.
As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace0 -
Phwoar, -10 points.0
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I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.surrey_commuter said:
what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.pangolin said:I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.
I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.
As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?surrey_commuter said:
what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.pangolin said:I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.
I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.
As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace0 -
they haven't done it againrick_chasey said:
Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?surrey_commuter said:
what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.pangolin said:I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.
I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.
As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace0
