Today's discussion about the news
Comments
-
Each time I think I couldn't dislike a politician more, Braverman proves me wrong.0 -
Who reins in Israel's democratically elected government?bikes_and_dogs said:The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to realise that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.0 -
I think it's more a case that Netanyahu is more willing to make whatever deal is necessary to stay in power than he is particularly popular. It's true that Likud are just as uninterested in a settlement as their opposite numbers.TheBigBean said:
Who reins in Israel's democratically elected government?bikes_and_dogs said:The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to realise that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.
If anyone is interested, Simon Sebag Montefiore and William Dalrymple have written stuff which I think is worth reading.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I agree.briantrumpet said:bikes_and_dogs said:The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to know that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.
Genuinely don't know how remote Sinn Féin were from the IRA, but seeing Ian Paisley along with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both of whom had (I think) convictions for terrorist offences was one of the most remarkable political things I've seen, and demonstrated what is possible when people look to a possible future rather than the dark past.
But it wouldn't have been possible if large sections of the population had not been thoroughly sick of the conflict and their leaders had an awareness of their view.
I can only hope that the leaders in the Gaza conflict see things from the point of view of folk that are just trying to get by rather than trying to "win".0 -
bikes_and_dogs said:
I agree.briantrumpet said:bikes_and_dogs said:The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to know that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.
Genuinely don't know how remote Sinn Féin were from the IRA, but seeing Ian Paisley along with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both of whom had (I think) convictions for terrorist offences was one of the most remarkable political things I've seen, and demonstrated what is possible when people look to a possible future rather than the dark past.
But it wouldn't have been possible if large sections of the population had not been thoroughly sick of the conflict and their leaders had an awareness of their view.
I can only hope that the leaders in the Gaza conflict see things from the point of view of folk that are just trying to get by rather than trying to "win".
I suspect that the population are just too preoccupied with just surviving constant deprivation to care too much, cut off from the West Bank and anywhere else, with a government who are probably not really governing, but who are less anti-Palentinian than Israel. Rocks and hard places come to mind, as you suggest, much more than NI.
Even if Israel did genuinely accept that the Gaza Strip has a long-term future (I suspect that the long term aim is to make it such hell that all the Palestinians leave, or to give Hamas enough means to be so inhuman on a large enough scale that Israel can just flatten the entire place without the whole world pushing back), I've no idea how they could flood the GS with enough support to the general population to isolate Hamas without being suspected of a devious plot, even if they could get it past the Israeli electorate.
It's as near a perfectly unresolvable situation as you could engineer, all being underpinned by religious dogma and centuries of bloody history.0 -
briantrumpet
It's as near a perfectly unresolvable situation as you could engineer, all being underpinned by religious dogma and centuries of bloody history.
I can only pray (to a nonexistant god) that your pessimism proves to be unwarranted. The alternative is even more ugly than it already is..
I suspect that my prayers will go unanswered.0 -
On the British aid to Gaza issue I mentioned earlier in the thread - indeed, UN representative for the UK pleaded for a humanitarian pause for the fighting and noted none of the aid UK has sent has been able to get in.
Exactly as I said 🙄0 -
For those of you who can Twit, this is an interesting thread, at least for me. 'Angry Staffer' and Andrew Laufer (two voices I've followed since the Trump days) have been taking a staunchly pro-Israel line. Seems like the IDF has shelled a refugee camp.
Which makes JoB's line of questioning yesterday to a caller apposite: "If a Hamas leader were sheltering in an Israeli camp, would such 'collateral damage' be OK?"
0 -
It feels like the final season of Game of Thrones.0
-
I guess that window of opportunity - a divergence between Hamas and the people of Gaza - has been firmly slammed shut for the foreseeable future. I've got no idea as to the means by which Hamas could have been replaced as the 'government' of Gaza, but if people are focused on conflict rather than resolution, then opportunities such as this will never be seized.
The tragedy is that both Hamas and Netanyahu need each other for survival, and those innocents slaughtered by Hamas and the IDF are paying the price.
0 -
Speaking to someone who has worked with the ruling classes in the middle east:
Hamas / Gaza are proxies for Iran, who likes to destabilise the middle east. Part of the rationale behind the initial attacks, knowing the response would be severe, is to create the next generation of freedom fighters.
The other reason, mentioned by BT above, is that Israel were negotiating with Saudi to be the gov't of Saudi, thus removing the need for Hamas, reducing Iran's control of the region.
Basically it's just a brutal merry-go-round0 -
Jeez - What a world we live in. If AI was tasked with preserving life on our planet, the human race should be very worried.0
-
shirley_basso said:
Speaking to someone who has worked with the ruling classes in the middle east:
Hamas / Gaza are proxies for Iran, who likes to destabilise the middle east. Part of the rationale behind the initial attacks, knowing the response would be severe, is to create the next generation of freedom fighters.
The other reason, mentioned by BT above, is that Israel were negotiating with Saudi to be the gov't of Saudi, thus removing the need for Hamas, reducing Iran's control of the region.
Basically it's just a brutal merry-go-round
Hamas and Iran have a shared interest here and yes Iran fund Hamas but they aren't as close as Iran and Hezbollah - largely because Hamas are Sunni and Iran and Hezbollah are Shiite. For example Iran and Hamas were in opposition over the civil war in Syria.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
After a siege of millions; bombing schools, ambulances, hospitals and refugee camps; and arresting without trial or legal representation, then torturing and tagging Gazan workers, before dumping them in Gaza without phones or money, where next for Israel? Heritgae minister has found a way to go lower.. Heritage minister Amichai Eliyahu of the Otzma Yehudit party is quoted by the Times of Israel as saying in an interview with Radio Kol Berama that the Palestinian people “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves”, adding that those who wave a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth”.
It quotes him saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip “is one of the possibilities”, and that humanitarian aid to the population should be restricted, saying “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid. There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
He's been suspended.0 -
Israel will soon have killed more civilians in less than a month than Russian has managed in its entire Ukraine war. I know "but Hamas"0
-
TheBigBean said:
Israel will soon have killed more civilians in less than a month than Russian has managed in its entire Ukraine war. I know "but Hamas"
It's small comfort that there is a large majority who want Netanyahu gone 'after the war'... 'small', not least as I can see him using that knowledge to keep the 'war' going as long as he can. I'm fairly certain that his ulterior motive is the obliteration of Gaza as a viable Palestinian entity, and he's using Hamas as the pretext for that.0 -
Current Sudanese civil war already passed that with over 4 million displaced refugees.TheBigBean said:Israel will soon have killed more civilians in less than a month than Russian has managed in its entire Ukraine war. I know "but Hamas"
Evidence of genocidal acts etc.
Wonder what it is that means the Americans don’t send a carrier or two…
0 -
Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
0 -
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.0 -
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.0 -
First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.
He still had to play the political situation in the US too, which even back then was fairly polarised/triggering when it came to do with anything to do with Israel. And I think he's not denying he might have done things differently.0 -
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the walk bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.0 -
There's a lot of inertia built in the US politics. Compared to the options for 2024?TheBigBean said:
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the wall bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.0 -
TheBigBean said:
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the walk bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.
Doesn't the video just play as embedded here?0 -
Yes, it does. I don't X either.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the walk bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.
Doesn't the video just play as embedded here?0 -
Yes, once I remove a few blockers. I've now watched it. Classic Obama.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the walk bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.
Doesn't the video just play as embedded here?
0 -
TheBigBean said:
Yes, once I remove a few blockers. I've now watched it. Classic Obama.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
I didn't read his comments. Twitter wall and all that. He has made a career out of talking a good game though and failing on the walk bit.First.Aspect said:
I'm not entirely sure you understood his point about the importance of admitting the complexity of the situation.TheBigBean said:
Obama had his chance though and set something of a record for bomb dropping.briantrumpet said:Apologies to the non-Twitterers (which will include me if Musk wants even a minimal subscription), but this thread illustrates my problems with the (many) posters on there who view stuff that isn't anti-Hamas as being anti-Semitic, or taking the worst interpretation possible from sentiments aired by people trying to give voice to a Palestinian point of view, rather than trying to understand why Palestinians might, despite the atrocities visited upon Israel by Hamas, still feel aggrieved and want peace.
Also, good to hear Obama saying (as circumspectly as he can) that (essentially) someone is going to have to talk to Hamas, no matter how much they are rightly despised.
It's near the start.
Doesn't the video just play as embedded here?
TBF, he doesn't say anything ground-breaking, and actually doesn't say much apart from needing to talk to enemies. But if there were any easy fix, someone would have fixed it by now.
And TBF to Biden, I get the impression he is exerting some modest leverage on Netanyahu, whilst trying not to upset any domestic lobbies too much.0 -
In the current context, saying something sensible can be greeted with outrage. Which was Brian's point.0
-
First.Aspect said:
In the current context, saying something sensible can be greeted with outrage. Which was Brian's point.
Was it? Oh good, I knew I must have had a point! 😃0 -
Hedgerows and woodland across the nation are awash with the red berries which nature experts at the Woodland Trust are describing as one of the biggest ever crops.https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/23893979.biggest-ever-crop-hawthorn-berries-brings-good-news-wildlife/
Nature’s Calendar recorders have sent in reports with this year’s crop being given 4.2 on the fruit scale – deemed as “exceptional”.
This takes in dozens of records where hawthorns are judged on the abundance of their berries, also known as haws.
Smithills Estate is the largest site the Woodland Trust manages.
The Nature’s Calendar team has been reporting on this for the last 20 years, and with records still coming in, it’s the largest fruit score ever - equalled only in 2014.
Dr Judith Garforth, the Woodland Trust’s Citizen Science Officer, said: “This is really good autumn news for wildlife.
“Haws are eaten by migrating birds such as redwings, fieldfares and thrushes as well as small mammals.
“The fruit score is really important as it provides an indicator of winter food availability for wildlife, as well as the seed source available for natural regeneration of trees and shrubs, it’s often linked to climate variables in preceding seasons.”
That's great to hear for the wildlife this autumn/winter.0
