Today's discussion about the news

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

Sure. Israel has the cards here though, and they're playing them badly. This is not the route to a solution that suits their interest. And lots will die while they work that one out, and they'll haemorrhage international support in the process.

rick_chasey

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

focuszing723

If Humanity ignored the negative would it become more positive?

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

I dunno, if you're directly targeting the war memorials on the right dates, I'd say that shows a pretty good understanding of the UK, no?

My citizenship test would be exclusively a language test, anyway.

Make 'em write a letter asking HMRC for a rebate, with various tricky criteria and see if they can do that etc.

Gotta be able to navigate the bureaucracy.

rick_chasey

Also, to be clear SC, not everyone is trigged by messing about with war memorials.

Certainly in my peer group and friends, most couldn't give much of a sh!t. They're not going around graffitiing them but nor are they exercised by it.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

I dunno, if you're directly targeting the war memorials on the right dates, I'd say that shows a pretty good understanding of the UK, no?

My citizenship test would be exclusively a language test, anyway.

Make 'em write a letter asking HMRC for a rebate, with various tricky criteria and see if they can do that etc.

Gotta be able to navigate the bureaucracy.

I don't disagree with the language test but would add a layer for "being a good citizen"

As an eg Daniel Hannan would have been kicked out for coming over here and stirring up trouble

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

I dunno, if you're directly targeting the war memorials on the right dates, I'd say that shows a pretty good understanding of the UK, no?

My citizenship test would be exclusively a language test, anyway.

Make 'em write a letter asking HMRC for a rebate, with various tricky criteria and see if they can do that etc.

Gotta be able to navigate the bureaucracy.

I don't disagree with the language test but would add a layer for "being a good citizen"

As an eg Daniel Hannan would have been kicked out for coming over here and stirring up trouble

you're not the free marketer liberal I thought you were. Good citizens is far too subjective.

veronese68

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

Is twatting around with war memorials worse than interfering with any other monument? How about compared to other crimes, is it worse than shop lifting? There are definitely more important things to worry about, especially when the only phucktards twatting about near war memorials are the simpletons claiming to be protecting them.

sungod

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

they didn't do it in the first place

bin laden was saudi, that's the country infamous for exporting it's strict/intolerant/extreme wahhabi interpretation of islam to poor nations, thereby creating a situation where extremism could more easily flourish

surrey_commuter

sungod said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

they didn't do it in the first place

bin laden was saudi, that's the country infamous for exporting it's strict/intolerant/extreme wahhabi interpretation of islam to poor nations, thereby creating a situation where extremism could more easily flourish

Even better - nobody else has done it again

surrey_commuter

veronese68 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

One thing that this conflict has shown is the geopolitical implications of the West having a lot of immigration from that part of the world. There's now a significant minority of people who have imported those political values to the West.

as a matter of interest would tvvatting around with war memorials be a failure of your citizenship test?

Is twatting around with war memorials worse than interfering with any other monument? How about compared to other crimes, is it worse than shop lifting? There are definitely more important things to worry about, especially when the only phucktards twatting about near war memorials are the simpletons claiming to be protecting them.

I see a system whereby I am the sole arbiter.

I don't see one off shoplifting as a kick outable offence though it depend upon the shop and the circumstances.

And I would also ban the police from protecting protestors from the people they are deliberately winding up

rjsterry

pangolin said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.

Literally what Biden said to Netanyahu.

pangolin

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.

Literally what Biden said to Netanyahu.

Not sure how to take that

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

Blimey you have a short memory.

'They' didn't hijack any further planes because airport security was tightened up significantly, but there is a long list of subsequent Islamist terrorist attacks up to the present day.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

Blimey you have a short memory.

'They' didn't hijack any further planes because airport security was tightened up significantly, but there is a long list of subsequent Islamist terrorist attacks up to the present day.

IIRC some tried it in Glasgow. That was never repeated. 🤣
And they didn't have to adopt a foreign policy either.

sungod

surrey_commuter said:

sungod said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

Hardly a success though, was it? Widely considered to be the defining foreign policy failure of the 00s that has since undermined America's position globally, not to mention the 100,000s of dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, for what precisely?

they haven't done it again

they didn't do it in the first place

bin laden was saudi, that's the country infamous for exporting it's strict/intolerant/extreme wahhabi interpretation of islam to poor nations, thereby creating a situation where extremism could more easily flourish

Even better - nobody else has done it again

tell that to victims in london, paris, brussells, mumbai, boston, mogadishu, sousse, nice, etc., they'll be able to put you right

isis/isil/affiliates are still slaughtering, direct descendants of the wahhabis via al qaeda

the world has plenty of people claiming their imaginary friend(s) justify their bloodshed, even the buddhists are at it

the response to 9/11 hasn't dissuaded anyone

rjsterry

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.

Literally what Biden said to Netanyahu.

Not sure how to take that

OK, not verbatim, but he was pretty clear that Netanyahu should not repeat the mistakes the US made after 9/11. Principally because it demonstrably has not worked. They lost about 1900 servicemen and women in Afghanistan and it's still run by the Taliban and a perfect place for Islamist terrorists to hang out.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.

Literally what Biden said to Netanyahu.

Not sure how to take that

OK, not verbatim, but he was pretty clear that Netanyahu should not repeat the mistakes the US made after 9/11. Principally because it demonstrably has not worked. They lost about 1900 servicemen and women in Afghanistan and it's still run by the Taliban and a perfect place for Islamist terrorists to hang out.

It was more friendly advice than a threat though.

Stevo_666

https://thedailymash.co.uk/politics/eight-labour-frontbenchers-okay-withdraw-the-troops-says-israel-20231116242499

bikes_and_dogs

In the news today, food, water, fuel and medical supplies will run out within the next couple of days in Gaza City. A narrative we have been presented with for the last few weeks.
I'm reminded of Aesop's fable of "The boy that cried wolf".
Now that we're in a situation where there may actually be a wolf, the listeners may be mistaken in taking the warnings with a pinch of salt.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

rjsterry said:

pangolin said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

I do find it a strange position (and it seems a fairly popular one) that the Hamas attack (however horrific) was some kind of start.

what i find hard to understand is why you and others can not look at other circumstances and use that as a benchmark.

I would see this as equivalent to 9/11 and as that was before my time on here I have no idea if you lot were wringing your hands and bemoaning innocent deaths as a result of the US disproportionate response.

As they were digging out the bodies why were they not sitting down with bin Laden to find a route to lasting peace

I don't think the 9/11 attacks nor the US response should be used as a template for good policy no.

Literally what Biden said to Netanyahu.

Not sure how to take that

OK, not verbatim, but he was pretty clear that Netanyahu should not repeat the mistakes the US made after 9/11. Principally because it demonstrably has not worked. They lost about 1900 servicemen and women in Afghanistan and it's still run by the Taliban and a perfect place for Islamist terrorists to hang out.

It was more friendly advice than a threat though.

Maybe the better for it, although I doubt Netanyahu will take it.

Pross

First.Aspect said:

Hamas telling porkies and Israel telling porkies are not mutually exclusive.

I suspect the idea of pork pies is one of the few things both sides would find offensive!

bikes_and_dogs

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Hamas telling porkies and Israel telling porkies are not mutually exclusive.

I suspect the idea of pork pies is one of the few things both sides would find offensive!

I know this is a serious subject, but I couldn't help giggling.

ddraver

Outstanding work Pross

briantrumpet

In the absence of Chris Morris eviscerating what passes for journalism all too often...

https://twitter.com/larryandpaul/status/1725785917183668236

TheBigBean

Biden has said that some of the murdering settlers in the West Bank might not be able to holiday in the US.

Dorset_Boy

IDF press conference showing video from 7th October claiming Hamas taking hostages and military vehicles to the Al Shifa hospital, and video of tunnels under the hospital.

TheBigBean

Dorset_Boy said:

IDF press conference showing video from 7th October claiming Hamas taking hostages and military vehicles to the Al Shifa hospital, and video of tunnels under the hospital.

The trouble is that even if, and that is a big if given the source*, the videos are genuine. They don't justify military action against a hospital. Particularly in the case of one injured hostage - isn't hospital a sensible place to take someone with an injury?

*The BBC discredited one of the recent videos showing a gun cache. It had been edited, time cut, more guns added etc. We've also seen actors in Lebanon being used to show Gazan ambulances and clips from wars several years ago.

Anyway, Israel has found a new hospital to drive tanks into and a new UN school to bomb.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

Anyway, Israel has found a new hospital to drive tanks into and a new UN school to bomb.

And having told 1m people to flee to the south, it appears they are moving the offensive to the south. I still think this is an operation to lay waste to the whole of Gaza and drive Palestinians out of it, or leave it so uninhabitable that they'll mostly leave.