Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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"But Hamas" doesn't help the West Bank. It is just an excuse to do nothing about it. At least "but Hamas" has some relevance to a Gaza discussion.rjsterry said:
Sorry, should have clarified. Hamas.TheBigBean said:
Who is they? The Palestinians (and others such as Bedouin) in the West Bank haven't done much in a while other than get shot, be evicted and have little legal recourse. Would you like them to be evicted in another fashion? Would you prefer they fight back and get shot in larger numbers, so that they can be blamed? DeVlaeminck's point was that the US should do something about this by reducing the money they send to Israel.rjsterry said:
How on earth do their current actions do anything other than entrench the existing settlements?TheBigBean said:
How does this help with settlements in the West Bank which was DeVlaeminck's point? Or are just trying to show how it would play out in the US?surrey_commuter said:
One opton that has not been suggested for saving Palestinian lives is for Hamas to give up. Whether they go into prison or exile they would save many thousands of lives.TheBigBean said:
The US doesn't follow reasonable arguments on the subject. It will be seen as being anti-Israel and supporting terrorism. EU sanctions are another unlikely approach.DeVlaeminck said:The point made on Question Time by Sayeeda Warsi was slso made today by Rory Stewart - so two rabid left wingers! - that Netanyahu has actually encouraged Hamas because it gives him a reason not to negotiate with the Palestinian authorities.
A very good point made by some journo I heard today - rather than the usa giving unconditional support to Israel make it conditional on not one more israeli settler moving to Palestinian land. If Israel wont agree let Netanyahu double taxes on Israelis to pay for his war. That serms to me something with zero reasonable arguments against it unless you agree with ethnic cleansing.
They could bunk up with the rest of the leadership in the 4 Seasons in Doha0 -
That was kind of my point. Bombing people is apparently acceptable if it's the Syrian government and Russians doing it.rick_chasey said:
Residents of gaza are indeed familiar with what it's like for the authorities to bomb the locals.rjsterry said:
Hamas also now mates with Assad despite him getting the Russians to bomb the locals.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Hurricane Otis looks like it came out of nowhere and absolutely fucked up acapulco.0
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My point was that Hamas are making things worse for the West Bank. There are now a bunch of settlers saying 'see, I told you we should have just occupied the whole lot'.TheBigBean said:
"But Hamas" doesn't help the West Bank. It is just an excuse to do nothing about it. At least "but Hamas" has some relevance to a Gaza discussion.rjsterry said:
Sorry, should have clarified. Hamas.TheBigBean said:
Who is they? The Palestinians (and others such as Bedouin) in the West Bank haven't done much in a while other than get shot, be evicted and have little legal recourse. Would you like them to be evicted in another fashion? Would you prefer they fight back and get shot in larger numbers, so that they can be blamed? DeVlaeminck's point was that the US should do something about this by reducing the money they send to Israel.rjsterry said:
How on earth do their current actions do anything other than entrench the existing settlements?TheBigBean said:
How does this help with settlements in the West Bank which was DeVlaeminck's point? Or are just trying to show how it would play out in the US?surrey_commuter said:
One opton that has not been suggested for saving Palestinian lives is for Hamas to give up. Whether they go into prison or exile they would save many thousands of lives.TheBigBean said:
The US doesn't follow reasonable arguments on the subject. It will be seen as being anti-Israel and supporting terrorism. EU sanctions are another unlikely approach.DeVlaeminck said:The point made on Question Time by Sayeeda Warsi was slso made today by Rory Stewart - so two rabid left wingers! - that Netanyahu has actually encouraged Hamas because it gives him a reason not to negotiate with the Palestinian authorities.
A very good point made by some journo I heard today - rather than the usa giving unconditional support to Israel make it conditional on not one more israeli settler moving to Palestinian land. If Israel wont agree let Netanyahu double taxes on Israelis to pay for his war. That serms to me something with zero reasonable arguments against it unless you agree with ethnic cleansing.
They could bunk up with the rest of the leadership in the 4 Seasons in Doha1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I wonder how long it will take for the real elephant in the room to be confronted in the Middle East dispute? - i.e. religious indoctrination. Holy war rhetoric, martyrs, Evangelical Christianity etc. are a stain on humanity.
All manner of the players seem to think that God is on their side. Maybe we should listen to some atheists for a change.0 -
Humans be humans.0
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Is also OK for Ukraine to bomb Moscowrjsterry said:
That was kind of my point. Bombing people is apparently acceptable if it's the Syrian government and Russians doing it.rick_chasey said:
Residents of gaza are indeed familiar with what it's like for the authorities to bomb the locals.rjsterry said:
Hamas also now mates with Assad despite him getting the Russians to bomb the locals.0 -
Squinting at the graph and guessing random ratios, peaker gas plus wind/solar looks pretty competitive against coal and beats nuclear hands down.TheBigBean said:
If you want to read about it the key search term is levelised cost of electricity (LCOE). The graph below shows this cost. View it with caution as gas prices are volatile and solar/wind vary by location, so aren't a simple number.Jezyboy said:
Is this largely because the pricing doesn't take into account storage, or having to have spare non renewable supply for when renewables aren't producing?TheBigBean said:
Renewables provide the cheapest energy in a lot of places.Jezyboy said:
It's certainly odd seeing stories such as this, when there's a backdrop of anti net zero rhetoric from our current politicians.focuszing723 said:Renewables will provide half the world’s electricity by the turn of the decade, according to the latest annual report from the International Energy Agency (IEA), released on Tuesday.https://www.positive.news/society/good-news-stories-from-week-43-of-2023/
The global energy watchdog says major shifts will mean a “considerably different” global energy system by 2030, with demand for oil, coal and gas forecast to peak in the next seven years.
Among its more positive predictions – based on current policy settings of governments worldwide – are a tenfold increase in EVs on the roads, solar PV generating more electricity than the entire US power system does currently, and three times more cash invested in offshore wind than in coal and gas-fuelled plants.
Anyway, to answer your question. This is just to produce and doesn't consider the cost of storage or intermittent generation, and if a gas generator can only run for 12 hours a day because it can't compete for the other 12 hours, then its levelised cost will increase (and perhaps this should be added to the cost of intermittent generation).
In most cases though, cheap energy wins (from the view point of the consumer/government). The main danger to the generator is cannibalisation where the price collapses in the periods of cheap energy. See the Californian Duck Curve below (price follows the curve).
It's interesting that the cost of nuclear has risen. Without going to the paper I'd make a wild guess that world-wide maintenance costs are higher than budgeted, and in some cases, plants closing earlier than planned (although after their initial life) and ever more stringent safety requirements.
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What, the small number of drones? Is that really comparable?surrey_commuter said:
Is also OK for Ukraine to bomb Moscowrjsterry said:
That was kind of my point. Bombing people is apparently acceptable if it's the Syrian government and Russians doing it.rick_chasey said:
Residents of gaza are indeed familiar with what it's like for the authorities to bomb the locals.rjsterry said:
Hamas also now mates with Assad despite him getting the Russians to bomb the locals.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think this is probably a fair representation.0 -
Many of the replies to JoB are illustrative of not only why social media can be so toxic and corrosive, but also why any sort of resolution of the humanitarian catastrophe feels so remote just now.
(Apologies to the non-Xitterers.)
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Worth noting that some people's views have changed from one to the other. Not everyone is stuck with one view.rick_chasey said:
I think this is probably a fair representation.0 -
Are they not both a bit simplistic?TheBigBean said:
Worth noting that some people's views have changed from one to the other. Not everyone is stuck with one view.rick_chasey said:
I think this is probably a fair representation.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Are they not both a bit simplistic?TheBigBean said:
Worth noting that some people's views have changed from one to the other. Not everyone is stuck with one view.rick_chasey said:
I think this is probably a fair representation.
That seems to be an unfortunate side-effect of the 'taking sides' tendency, which is especially prevalent in this conflict.
I tend to dismiss any commentators on either side of this one who glibly overlook the atrocities or breaking of international law by 'their side' as mere inconveniences in their arguments of the justifications for their actions. It's disappointing when someone you've followed as a sane voice on other matters falls into that trap.0 -
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Netanyahu maybe saying the quiet part out loud when he quotes the Bible for justification...
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Just two weeks ago Israel was the poor victim we all felt sorry for.
I feared it would come to this.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
indiscriminate killing of innocents, that's what the hamas scum didbriantrumpet said:Netanyahu maybe saying the quiet part out loud when he quotes the Bible for justification...
irrespective of who does it, it's abhorrentmy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
sungod said:
indiscriminate killing of innocents, that's what the hamas scum didbriantrumpet said:Netanyahu maybe saying the quiet part out loud when he quotes the Bible for justification...
irrespective of who does it, it's abhorrent
Quite so. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to have to break the cycle of violence. Sadly, I don't think there's anyone with either the vision or courage to at the moment. Both sides are feeding off hatred.0 -
briantrumpet said:sungod said:
indiscriminate killing of innocents, that's what the hamas scum didbriantrumpet said:Netanyahu maybe saying the quiet part out loud when he quotes the Bible for justification...
irrespective of who does it, it's abhorrent
Quite so. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to have to break the cycle of violence. Sadly, I don't think there's anyone with either the vision or courage to at the moment. Both sides are feeding off hatred.All means were good to undo the notion of Palestinian statehood. In 2019, Mr. Netanyahu told a meeting of his center-right Likud party: “Those who want to thwart the possibility of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/peace-activists-israel-palestinian.html?unlocked_article_code=1.6Uw.Dqvb.4ZbjXrnzgjDl&smid=url-share
...they even approved the funding of hamas (by qatar)
by splitting the palestinians and enabling the rise of murderous fanatics, he guaranteed the cycle of continuing provocation by all parties, with violence and retaliation, rendering progress to any peaceful solution unattainable
imo the last good chance for peace died with the assassination of rabin (by an israeli fanatic), downhill ever since
things won't change unless/until outside enablers, on all sides, agree to impose it, no sign of that, too many fanatics in control there too
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
Thank you for posting, Gerald Kaufman reminds me of times when respectable people with legitimate views didn’t have to self-censor for fear of being vilified. I wonder if he would have been able to make that speech today without being thrown out of his own party.briantrumpet said:Nearly 15 years ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osr_1ySuF6A
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Both Netanyahu and Hamas appear content to sacrifice a few thousand of their own citizens' lives for a perceived advantage.sungod said:briantrumpet said:sungod said:
indiscriminate killing of innocents, that's what the hamas scum didbriantrumpet said:Netanyahu maybe saying the quiet part out loud when he quotes the Bible for justification...
irrespective of who does it, it's abhorrent
Quite so. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to have to break the cycle of violence. Sadly, I don't think there's anyone with either the vision or courage to at the moment. Both sides are feeding off hatred.All means were good to undo the notion of Palestinian statehood. In 2019, Mr. Netanyahu told a meeting of his center-right Likud party: “Those who want to thwart the possibility of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/peace-activists-israel-palestinian.html?unlocked_article_code=1.6Uw.Dqvb.4ZbjXrnzgjDl&smid=url-share
...they even approved the funding of hamas (by qatar)
by splitting the palestinians and enabling the rise of murderous fanatics, he guaranteed the cycle of continuing provocation by all parties, with violence and retaliation, rendering progress to any peaceful solution unattainable
imo the last good chance for peace died with the assassination of rabin (by an israeli fanatic), downhill ever since
things won't change unless/until outside enablers, on all sides, agree to impose it, no sign of that, too many fanatics in control there too1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Quite so. It was that, and that the problem hasn't moved one iota since then that struck me.secretsqirrel said:
Thank you for posting, Gerald Kaufman reminds me of times when respectable people with legitimate views didn’t have to self-censor for fear of being vilified. I wonder if he would have been able to make that speech today without being thrown out of his own party.briantrumpet said:Nearly 15 years ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osr_1ySuF6A
Though it was in a different league, the Troubles only got 'solved' when the dominant party (GB) found the moral fibre to negotiate with the terrorists they had so publicly despised and who had killed their friends as well as so many other people. I think it's no surprise that it was a pragmatist with a wafer-thin majority (John Major) who laid much of the groundwork: he was no demagogue.
The only way to rid the Gaza Strip of the lure of Hamas is the opposite of trying to obliterate them by force, but by making friends with the normal people of Gaza. Though I can see that might be problematic if your religious/nationalistic belief is that they shouldn't be there at all.1 -
Humans being human.
How long before we get a 60s style love 'n' peace vibe taking over in this world? And how much 'kin politicos sxit do we have to suffer before?0 -
If the Israeli army is planning to shoot on sight like they did with the car doing a three point turn today, then the death toll could rise quite a bit. As will the war crime accusations and the Hamas comparisons.0
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Both sides also seem to be trotting out their videos of POW/captives/hostages/prisoners/whatever.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67263059
The bit about a gun shop owner selling 28 guns. Because more guns is the solution?0 -
The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to realise that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.0 -
bikes_and_dogs said:
The lessons learned from the the negotiated peace in Northern Ireland should be a template for the way forward in Gaza.
Give a voice to the normal people (civilians?) and give them the confidence to resist oppression by the thuggish minority. The gangsters need to know that they are not acting in the interests of the people that they claim to represent.
Genuinely don't know how remote Sinn Féin were from the IRA, but seeing Ian Paisley along with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, both of whom had (I think) convictions for terrorist offences was one of the most remarkable political things I've seen, and demonstrated what is possible when people look to a possible future rather than the dark past.0
