TDF 2023: Stage 16:- Passy to Combloux, 22.4km ITT ***Spoilers***

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

"Mr 60%" himself, Bjarne Riis dishing it out on the Hautacam in the 1996 Tour was the ultimate p*ss take, one would think.

To be juiced up to that level of dominance in the era of unfettered EPO-usage (testing was only introduced late in 2000 (just in time for the Sydney OGs, I think) with the 50% Hct "health check" only introduced for the 1997 season) was quite something.

focuszing723

...

DeVlaeminck

I wasn't following the sport during the Riis win - the instance that really stuck out for me at the time was the Saumier Duval pair Piepoli and Ricco.

I still can't dislike them - Piepoli just had that look of the old Italian pro and Ricco was almost a comedy doper.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

"Mr 60%" himself, Bjarne Riis dishing it out on the Hautacam in the 1996 Tour was the ultimate p*ss take, one would think.

To be juiced up to that level of dominance in the era of unfettered EPO-usage (testing was only introduced late in 2000 (just in time for the Sydney OGs, I think) with the 50% Hct "health check" only introduced for the 1997 season) was quite something.

Before my time so I never watched it live.

But you see my point. When I take a step back, obviously doping's terrible yadayada, but in the moment, it's pretty rare I'm watching a performance and going "naaah" as it's happening.

I marvel at all the performances tbh, juice or not juice.

I marvelled at Vingers a few days ago and I'd be surprised if he was juiced, just because I can't see him passing the tests if he's on EPO or testosterone and I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

pblakeney

Just for context, some people were still in denial right up to the Oprah interview.
Some still are...

No_Ta_Doctor

pblakeney said:

Just for context, some people were still in denial right up to the Oprah interview.
Some still are...

You know there was actual evidence there? People saying "yeah, I was there, we did everything - buckets of it"? It wasn't all "he rode a bike a bit quick, looks dodgy to me"

r0bh

No_Ta_Doctor said:

pblakeney said:

Just for context, some people were still in denial right up to the Oprah interview.
Some still are...

You know there was actual evidence there? People saying "yeah, I was there, we did everything - buckets of it"? It wasn't all "he rode a bike a bit quick, looks dodgy to me"

There is also an amazing body of evidence that the Earth is a sphere but some people are adamant it is flat

Lanterne_Rogue

People invested in an idea - be it a sports star, 'scientific' theory or political party - will ignore all sorts of arguments and evidence that don't correlate with their views.

In the case of doping accusations that applies to both sides.

(btw, I didn't think JV took as much time solo as you'd expect on the final climb given his form of the day before, for those looking for some sort of recovery debt from the TT. Pogacar is clearly wrecked though.)

andyp

I think so many people were duped by Armstrong, and back in the day on here there was a vocal majority who were convinced he was clean and totally bought into the "he nearly died so wouldn't risk his health again" narrative, that they don't want to get duped again, so immediately think that anyone who does anything extraordinary now must be doping and they are smart enough to see it.

The EPO era was odd, in the sense that the drug(s) gave such a massive performance boost that other areas where improvements could be gained were all but overlooked. A few teams did a bit of work on aerodynamics, but no one was seriously looking at it or nutrition or keeping the core cool and all the other stuff that most teams are all over now.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

"Mr 60%" himself, Bjarne Riis dishing it out on the Hautacam in the 1996 Tour was the ultimate p*ss take, one would think.

To be juiced up to that level of dominance in the era of unfettered EPO-usage (testing was only introduced late in 2000 (just in time for the Sydney OGs, I think) with the 50% Hct "health check" only introduced for the 1997 season) was quite something.

Before my time so I never watched it live.

But you see my point. When I take a step back, obviously doping's terrible yadayada, but in the moment, it's pretty rare I'm watching a performance and going "naaah" as it's happening.

The beauty of the EPO era was that things were so ridiculous that the excitement was more about how implausible the next climb would be than the actual racing. Ullrich in 1997 in the stage to Andorra was almost as comedic as Riis on the Hautacam.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

pblakeney

No_Ta_Doctor said:

pblakeney said:

Just for context, some people were still in denial right up to the Oprah interview.
Some still are...

You know there was actual evidence there? People saying "yeah, I was there, we did everything - buckets of it"? It wasn't all "he rode a bike a bit quick, looks dodgy to me"

Obviously. I can't help what others think or spout though.
My point is that it wasn't universally accepted that doping was occurring.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

Pross

I always work on the basis of giving the benefit of the doubt, especially when the only evidence for the 'prosecution' is that someone is better than everyone else. That said, I can certainly understand raised eyebrows on the basis of just how dominant that ride was on Tuesday especially when the two riders have been so evenly matched over most of their meetings. You do have to take account of a lot of things like Pog's lack of preparation and that the next day showed he was a distance from his best. It's hard to judge to the rest of the field as those contending the top 10 had already shown themselves to be at quite a bit of a lower level, the specialists weren't really suited to the course and most of the others were taking it easy. The gap to Wout is large but he'd been working hard on the front of either the bunch or the break for most of the race and you'd be more surprised if he didn't lose time on that terrain.

For me I have to ask if he is doping what is he using that isn't getting detected and why are none of the others using it.

blazing_saddles

Pross said:

I always work on the basis of giving the benefit of the doubt, especially when the only evidence for the 'prosecution' is that someone is better than everyone else. That said, I can certainly understand raised eyebrows on the basis of just how dominant that ride was on Tuesday especially when the two riders have been so evenly matched over most of their meetings. You do have to take account of a lot of things like Pog's lack of preparation and that the next day showed he was a distance from his best. It's hard to judge to the rest of the field as those contending the top 10 had already shown themselves to be at quite a bit of a lower level, the specialists weren't really suited to the course and most of the others were taking it easy. The gap to Wout is large but he'd been working hard on the front of either the bunch or the break for most of the race and you'd be more surprised if he didn't lose time on that terrain.

For me I have to ask if he is doping what is he using that isn't getting detected and why are none of the others using it.

This pretty much sums it up for me, too.
I accept results on face value. Doesn't mean that I don't have my doubts and that these days, those doubts are always performance based.
For instance, with regard to Tuesdays ITT, I have seen "back of the fag packet" calculations claiming that JV managed to hold a 7.5w/Kg effort for 13 minutes, on his TT bike, up the final climb.
Were those calculations categorically fact, then it would definitely raise a red flag with me.
However, as far as I know, they aren't, so therefore I treat the figure of 7.5w/Kg with a healthy dose of scepticism. (ignore)

wallace_and_gromit

blazing_saddles said:

For instance, with regard to Tuesdays ITT, I have seen "back of the censored packet" calculations claiming that JV managed to hold a 7.5w/Kg effort for 13 minutes, on his TT bike, up the final climb.

In isolation, 7.5w/kg for 13 minutes is hardly excessive the day after a rest day. It depends what happened in the 20 minutes before that though, obviously.

IIRC, 6 w/kg for an hour repeatedly on the final climb of a stage is the benchmark for a referral to the Clinic.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

Let's just say back in the day, it was not super hard for this very forum to know was drugs they were likely in before it was being reported on.

Lots of these things were being discussed on bodybuilding forums (such as cuttingedgemuscle)

pblakeney

Is it just me that has a complete disconnect between Rick C and bodybuilding? 😉

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

Is it just me that has a complete disconnect between Rick C and bodybuilding? 😉

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/looking-for-bros-from-the-now-closed-cutting-edge-muscle-forum.164551/

Hello all. New to the forum. Just getting back into training after finishing school and finally having a real job with normal hours. Also wondering if any of the old gang from the CEM forum made their way to this forum?

Was that the one that had the whole sub-section devoted to proper doping for competitive tour de France style cycling?

(please note more than one of the that community being pointed out to have died. we all joke but this doping stuff isn't again).

Yeah there were people who's hobby was fishing out the best and newest gear for all sorts of bodily objectives, including endurance sport.

pblakeney

Nope.
Still a complete disconnect.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

Let's just say back in the day, it was not super hard for this very forum to know was drugs they were likely in before it was being reported on.

Lots of these things were being discussed on bodybuilding forums (such as cuttingedgemuscle)

Not wanting to point out the obvious, but if a few folk on the internet have access to information about the "new" wonder drug then dodgy sports doctors have likely had the information for much longer. Whether such stuff gets reported on is largely irrelevant in terms of said stuff being in use.

I was meaning proper "whispers" about stuff that genuinely only a handful of people knew about.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

Let's just say back in the day, it was not super hard for this very forum to know was drugs they were likely in before it was being reported on.

Lots of these things were being discussed on bodybuilding forums (such as cuttingedgemuscle)

Not wanting to point out the obvious, but if a few folk on the internet have access to information about the "new" wonder drug then dodgy sports doctors have likely had the information for much longer. Whether such stuff gets reported on is largely irrelevant in terms of said stuff being in use.

I was meaning proper "whispers" about stuff that genuinely only a handful of people knew about.

So how do you think a pro-cyclist would find about this stuff earlier than anyone else? Genuinely, what's the process?

These amateurs were digging around all sorts of scientific studies, looking at pretty much every drug came out.

Honestly, they were miles ahead of this stuff. I mean, you need to remember, there aren't *that many* drugs that had an impact that was worth bothering with, especially if you were already on EPO.

I remember reading about CERA before it was approved, and Ricco got popped for it only a year after we heard about it, which was when it was approved,, so I doubt we were that far behind.

(that was the Kohl, Schumacher, Ricco tour, when it was really obvious to see who was on CERA and who wasn't)

ddraver

The point is that there are many many people with much more money than a cycling team who also want a leg up. Many of them don't give a fig about keeping it secret...

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

Let's just say back in the day, it was not super hard for this very forum to know was drugs they were likely in before it was being reported on.

Lots of these things were being discussed on bodybuilding forums (such as cuttingedgemuscle)

Not wanting to point out the obvious, but if a few folk on the internet have access to information about the "new" wonder drug then dodgy sports doctors have likely had the information for much longer. Whether such stuff gets reported on is largely irrelevant in terms of said stuff being in use.

I was meaning proper "whispers" about stuff that genuinely only a handful of people knew about.

So how do you think a pro-cyclist would find about this stuff earlier than anyone else? Genuinely, what's the process?

I don't know. It's not something I've ever investigated. My point was that you are not well placed to know about the latest wonder drug, even if you think you've had some inside track previously. If you worked in a WADA-accredited testing lab then I'd think differently.

Re CERA, the key point here is not that knowledge of it was widely known. The point is that it was widely believed that there was no test for it, which the aforementioned riders found to their cost was not the case.

rick_chasey

wallace_and_gromit said:

Re CERA, the key point here is not that knowledge of it was widely known. The point is that it was widely believed that there was no test for it, which the aforementioned riders found to their cost was not the case.

Right, but we don't even have a widely known drug that's new that there isn't already a test for.

You really think we wouldn't have heard of a new drug that boosts performance that much?

orraloon

I'm not entering The Clinic world of doping conspiracy, just tedious. And just stop it, Birnie on The Cycling Podcast.

Real world calling. I'm doing a volunteer marshalling stint for the UCI Worlds next month, specifically the para roads centred in Dumfries. Because such as me will have (limited) access to areas where riders will be, security measures include having to declare any and all medications that such a volunteer individual may have in possession. Control measures do exist.

mididoctors

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

I haven't heard a whisper about another drug that is that transformational.

Not being cynical here but does your professional life in recruitment position you to pick up such whispers particularly effectively?

lol don't remember the cuttingedgemuscle stuff do you?

No.

Let's just say back in the day, it was not super hard for this very forum to know was drugs they were likely in before it was being reported on.

Lots of these things were being discussed on bodybuilding forums (such as cuttingedgemuscle)

Was a fair number of posters using them

Pross

For those dubious of domination Kipyegon just knocked 5” off the women’s mile world record. I know it doesn’t get run regularly these days but that’s a big chunk. It goes alongside world records in the 1500m and 5000m in the last 6 or 7 weeks. She’s in the same PB form as I was in April!

mididoctors

rick_chasey said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Re CERA, the key point here is not that knowledge of it was widely known. The point is that it was widely believed that there was no test for it, which the aforementioned riders found to their cost was not the case.

Right, but we don't even have a widely known drug that's new that there isn't already a test for.

You really think we wouldn't have heard of a new drug that boosts performance that much?

There's to much self interest journalistacly and personally not to whistle blow a new practice . We would at the latest hear something before the years out . And frankly should have already heard I see no evidence as of yet