TDF 2023: Stage 16:- Passy to Combloux, 22.4km ITT ***Spoilers***

DeVlaeminck

wallace_and_gromit said:

m.r.m. said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

andytee87 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....

Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?

🙄🙄🙄🙄

Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?

Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.

Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.

Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.

Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour

I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.

I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.

Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.

(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.

BMI is a garbage stat (no offense). It's much too simplistic especially for (elite) athletes.

Except for the fact that elite athletes in a particular disciplines tend to have very similar builds. Unsurprising really as to be elite they will have somewhere near optimum limb lengths and relative limb lengths (*), do the same sort of training and eat the same sort of diet. Thus a BMI materially lower than is normal for the particular sub-group of elite athletes is potentially explained by rogue data. Hence my comment that I doubted that Wiggo raced at 69kg. He may well have done, but his implied BMI is at the extreme end of the scale in a sub-group of the population that is already highly selective towards being "light".

As I understand it, BMI is not good for use on the general population as a health measure, as it's too easy for overweight people to point to pro rugby players with BMIs of near 30 (because they are stacked with muscle, despite relatively low bodyfat) and say that their BMI of 30 is due to the muscle they put on in their odd trips to the gym when in reality it's due to excess "timber".

(*) e.g. elite swimmers and elite rowers tend to have similar stats re height and weight, but swimmers have relatively long arms, whereas rowers have relatively long legs.

Is there an optimum limb length in cycling ? I've not noticed pro cyclists having particularly long or short legs - ok optimum could be neither but that would need explaining.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeVlaeminck said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

m.r.m. said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

andytee87 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....

Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?

🙄🙄🙄🙄

Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?

Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.

Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.

Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.

Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour

I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.

I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.

Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.

(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.

BMI is a garbage stat (no offense). It's much too simplistic especially for (elite) athletes.

Except for the fact that elite athletes in a particular disciplines tend to have very similar builds. Unsurprising really as to be elite they will have somewhere near optimum limb lengths and relative limb lengths (*), do the same sort of training and eat the same sort of diet. Thus a BMI materially lower than is normal for the particular sub-group of elite athletes is potentially explained by rogue data. Hence my comment that I doubted that Wiggo raced at 69kg. He may well have done, but his implied BMI is at the extreme end of the scale in a sub-group of the population that is already highly selective towards being "light".

As I understand it, BMI is not good for use on the general population as a health measure, as it's too easy for overweight people to point to pro rugby players with BMIs of near 30 (because they are stacked with muscle, despite relatively low bodyfat) and say that their BMI of 30 is due to the muscle they put on in their odd trips to the gym when in reality it's due to excess "timber".

(*) e.g. elite swimmers and elite rowers tend to have similar stats re height and weight, but swimmers have relatively long arms, whereas rowers have relatively long legs.

Is there an optimum limb length in cycling ? I've not noticed pro cyclists having particularly long or short legs - ok optimum could be neither but that would need explaining.

For track cyclists the left leg should be two inches longer than the right leg

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

m.r.m. said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

andytee87 said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....

Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?

🙄🙄🙄🙄

Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?

Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.

Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.

Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.

Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour

I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.

I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.

Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.

(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.

BMI is a garbage stat (no offense). It's much too simplistic especially for (elite) athletes.

Except for the fact that elite athletes in a particular disciplines tend to have very similar builds. Unsurprising really as to be elite they will have somewhere near optimum limb lengths and relative limb lengths (*), do the same sort of training and eat the same sort of diet. Thus a BMI materially lower than is normal for the particular sub-group of elite athletes is potentially explained by rogue data. Hence my comment that I doubted that Wiggo raced at 69kg. He may well have done, but his implied BMI is at the extreme end of the scale in a sub-group of the population that is already highly selective towards being "light".

As I understand it, BMI is not good for use on the general population as a health measure, as it's too easy for overweight people to point to pro rugby players with BMIs of near 30 (because they are stacked with muscle, despite relatively low bodyfat) and say that their BMI of 30 is due to the muscle they put on in their odd trips to the gym when in reality it's due to excess "timber".

(*) e.g. elite swimmers and elite rowers tend to have similar stats re height and weight, but swimmers have relatively long arms, whereas rowers have relatively long legs.

Is there an optimum limb length in cycling ? I've not noticed pro cyclists having particularly long or short legs - ok optimum could be neither but that would need explaining.

It seems highly unlikely. The most recent 3 Tour winners have been 1.75 or 1.76m but prior to that we had Thomas at 1.83m, Froome at 1.86m, Nibali at 1.81m and Wiggins at 1.90m before going back to 1.74m for Evans and 1.76m for Contador. Of the other current GT champions Remco is 1.71m

So unless they had odd body shapes leg length isn’t much of a guide.

ddraver

I guess being shorter makes it easier to be light a la Rick Chasey (but very much not a la me...)

mrb123

Wouldn't usually name check Durianrider but his video on this TT did make me laugh.

Paranormal activity activated! Jonas unlocks Area 51 W/kg mode.

Video starts to the strains of the X-Files theme music.

m.r.m.

Is there a breakdown of where Vingegaard made up how much time? I would not be surprised if his descending made up close to half of his advantage based off of how fast he looked!

No_Ta_Doctor

m.r.m. said:

Is there a breakdown of where Vingegaard made up how much time? I would not be surprised if his descending made up close to half of his advantage based off of how fast he looked!

The gaps were 16", 31", 1'05", 1'38" - so he made up time all over the course, but most on the climb.

Time gains from that are:
16"
15"
34" (includes bike change)
33"

I've heard it reported that aside from having ridden the TT recon multiple times pre-Tour, Jonas has been doing 3 TT sessions per week. They also scraped a couple of hundred grams off the bike to make the change unneccessary. They dialled this one right in like Pog did to Roglic in 2020. The speed he took through the corners on that descent were watts he saved for the climb

DeadCalm

No_Ta_Doctor said:

m.r.m. said:

Is there a breakdown of where Vingegaard made up how much time? I would not be surprised if his descending made up close to half of his advantage based off of how fast he looked!

The gaps were 16", 31", 1'05", 1'38" - so he made up time all over the course, but most on the climb.

Time gains from that are:
16"
15"
34" (includes bike change)
33"

I've heard it reported that aside from having ridden the TT recon multiple times pre-Tour, Jonas has been doing 3 TT sessions per week. They also scraped a couple of hundred grams off the bike to make the change unneccessary. They dialled this one right in like Pog did to Roglic in 2020. The speed he took through the corners on that descent were watts he saved for the climb

You have a cyclist who was basically pants until he was 23 producing the best time trial in the history of the sport*. 3 TT sessions a week, a couple hundred grams and no number of recons can explain that.

*Tom Dumoulin

m.r.m.

Why would he just not have been discovered until age 23? I don't think that is unrealistic at all. Coming into your own by 23 is hardly late. 23? 23 makes you a late bloomer? 🤪

None of this is definitive of anything. It's less than grasping at straws. I have no idea whether he is clean or not, but people should come up with more than that measly amount when casting aspersions.

His bike handling of the TT bike was Pidcockesque on the road bike. It was utter perfection. Doping wouldn't help with that. That's talent multiplied by hard work.

No_Ta_Doctor

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

m.r.m.

According to German channel Scyence, Vingegaard was measured to have a VO2 max of 97 ml/min. per kg body weight when he was 17! 🤯
You will not find many people in the world with a higher value.

No_Ta_Doctor

Oh and back in 2018, when he was 21, they were writing that he was basically a freak of nature

https://sport.tv2.dk/cykling/2018-07-26-dansk-talent-med-saerligt-hjerte-spraenger-testrekorder

'But yeah, he came out of nowhere....

m.r.m.

No_Ta_Doctor said:

But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

If I remember correctly it was the Coll de Rates near Calpe in Spain. It's a pro test climb like Sa Calobra in Mallorca.

blazing_saddles

m.r.m. said:

According to German channel Scyence, Vingegaard was measured to have a VO2 max of 97 ml/min. per kg body weight when he was 17! 🤯
You will not find many people in the world with a higher value.

His team has said that it's bull poo.

https://twitter.com/medicinexthings/status/1681717633102561295

m.r.m.

Thx @blazing_saddles . Scratch that then! 😁

DeadCalm

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

DeadCalm

He's also phenomenally unlikeable.

wavefront

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

He was getting 2nd in GC races in only his second year of racing.

But fine you don’t like him. That’s ok. But if you’re suspicious, remove your bias as those suspicions also need to be directed at Pog.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeadCalm said:

He's also phenomenally unlikeable.

Lol.

All he said is that attacking too often is a sign of insecurity, but go ahead and nail him up

"Pogacar has been attacking me for 15 days. Because of his aggressiveness, I understood that at some point he would explode. Those who shoot too much are insecure and in the end they pay for it"

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

Yeah, of course everyone develops at the same speed and exactly the same. Pogacar is clearly the norm for that.

DeadCalm

No_Ta_Doctor said:

DeadCalm said:

He's also phenomenally unlikeable.

Lol.

All he said is that attacking too often is a sign of insecurity, but go ahead and nail him up

"Pogacar has been attacking me for 15 days. Because of his aggressiveness, I understood that at some point he would explode. Those who shoot too much are insecure and in the end they pay for it"

It was a totally ungracious and arrogant comment. The guy is a dick.

No_Ta_Doctor said:

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

Yeah, of course everyone develops at the same speed and exactly the same. Pogacar is clearly the norm for that.

Clearly not. But great champions usually show a hint when they are younger. We aren't talking quite good to very good or very good to great here. We are talking a progression of mediocre (at best) to unbeatable.

He won nothing then "boom, boom, boom" he was one of the best in the world, according to his dad. What exactly was behind that "boom, boom, boom"?

rick_chasey

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

andyp

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

DeadCalm said:

He's also phenomenally unlikeable.

Lol.

All he said is that attacking too often is a sign of insecurity, but go ahead and nail him up

"Pogacar has been attacking me for 15 days. Because of his aggressiveness, I understood that at some point he would explode. Those who shoot too much are insecure and in the end they pay for it"

It was a totally ungracious and arrogant comment. The guy is a censored .

No_Ta_Doctor said:

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

Yeah, of course everyone develops at the same speed and exactly the same. Pogacar is clearly the norm for that.

Clearly not. But great champions usually show a hint when they are younger. We aren't talking quite good to very good or very good to great here. We are talking a progression of mediocre (at best) to unbeatable.

He won nothing then "boom, boom, boom" he was one of the best in the world, according to his dad. What exactly was behind that "boom, boom, boom"?


You're taking a quote from cyclinguptodate or whatever it's called as something he said? lol. That site is rubbish, just recycles content from wherever it can scrape it from.

He was never mediocre. He was good as a kid, but as others have said, he was a small, lightweight rider in a country where there are virtually zero opportunities for riders of that type. It reminds me of something Tom Gloag said, how he thought he was crap because when he raced his peers - Fred Wright, Ethan and Leo Hayter amongst others - at Herne Hill they absolutely annihilated him. Then he went on a trip to Spain and suddenly found he was able to drop everyone on the climbs.

Riders also develop at different rates, not everyone is brilliant in their late teens, some take time to reach their best level. You seem to have made up your mind already and have resorted trying to fit things to suit your argument, rather than assessing the facts.

DeadCalm

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

blazing_saddles

wavefront said:

DeadCalm said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He climbed Alpe d'Huez in 42 minutes when he was sixteen, but yeah, it seems that if you haven't won a Tour by the time your're 22 you're a nobody nowadays....

His early years could almost be a study in youth development - he's small, and born in December. That makes him the youngest in his year group all the way through youth levels. That's shown pretty much everywhere to have an effect
https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/6/1/e000857

With his size/age he lacked the punch his competitiors had, and didn't win anything - racing in Denmark doesn't really cover a lot of mountains. But he's got a ridiculous physiology, and when he set a climb record (can't remember where) with his Danish team, Jumbo-Visma came calling. Since then he's worked with them - and he's suited to thorough, detailed work - to build on what his physiology offers.

He is more than a year older than Pogacar. Three years older than Arensman (another December baby) who came second in the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir. He wasn't just being beaten by his age group, he was being hammered by kids three years below him who were also youngest in their age group.

He was getting 2nd in GC races in only his second year of racing.

But fine you don’t like him. That’s ok. But if you’re suspicious, remove your bias as those suspicions also need to be directed at Pog.

Are you referring to this 2.1 one in China, back in 2016?

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-of-china/2016/gc

Quite an odd arrangement, with both a 1 and 2 race, (13th in that) with a rest day in between.


Meanwhile, Pogacar was winning a 2.1 GC race in Italy before he had a team!

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/giro-internazionale-della-lunigiana/2016/gc

DeVlaeminck

Obviously there's an element of doubt around any pro cyclist. When they produce an extraordinary performance that doubt is going to be bigger. Re him coming from nowhere though I do think it's a fair point that he wasn't suited to the racing in his homeland.

It's a bit like in the UK where track and cross tends to produce a certain sort of rider and some only really come through if they try their luck abroad. You could also throw in variation in how soon they took the sport seriously, how good their early coaching was etc. You can see how a rider ends up a few years in their development - Froome being a classic case in point.

It's does also seem Jumbo know what they are doing - it's just none of us know what they are doing.

rick_chasey

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

No_Ta_Doctor

One of those things that can hamper a young rider's development is injury....

https://www.tvmidtvest.dk/midt-og-vestjylland/braekkede-larbenet-se-jonas-kaempe-sig-tilbage

Of course, it can also teach you some of those hard lessons about perserverence etc...

https://cdn.midtvest.bazo.dk/images/210925a6-0079-4431-8980-4b5cb4d65370/s/1136/webp

That was his femur in 2017

Lanterne_Rogue

rick_chasey said:

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

Those times, and when Nibali took that sticky bottle.

ddraver

At least once more Miss Swan. As Always...

https://youtu.be/7E4vRtC7IcY

DeadCalm

rick_chasey said:

DeadCalm said:

rick_chasey said:

Ah honestly, such a buzzkill some of you. You've seen one of the greatest athletic achievements ever and you've got arseache about it.

Go watch a sport where athletic performance doesn't matter.

Indeed it was. Especially considering it was an achievement by someone who was basically inept a couple of years ago.

Thanks for the recommendation but I'll stick with cycling thanks. If you really don't care how those performances were achieved, maybe you should go watch this?

I regularly re-watch 90s and 00s cycling clips, and I still remember the jaw dropping when they happened. I guess I have the luxury that I am able to live in the moment when I'm watching this stuff.

There are only a few times where I really thought they were taking the p!ss, and that was Stefan Schumacher, Bernard Kohl, Vino and Ricco. They were the only times where it was really obvious they were on something the rest weren't.

That's a fair list to which I'd add Rasmussen (2007) although my certainty he was on the gear may have been reinforced by all the whereabouts brouhaha. Actually, at the time I wasn't sure about Vino. In hindsight though...