TDF 2023: Stage 16:- Passy to Combloux, 22.4km ITT ***Spoilers***

DeadCalm

andyp said:

I do wonder why some people watch pro cycling. As soon as anyone does a brilliant ride, they just start with the accusations.

There is brilliant and then there is ridiculous. This from a rider who in the words of his own father "won nothing" as a youngster, who managed a distant 62nd in the Tour de l'Avenir won by Pogacar despite being a year older and was generally mediocre until suddenly, again in the words of his father "boom, boom, boom" he was one of (ha!) the best in the world. I am one who is generally willing to suspend disbelief, but there are limits.

secretsqirrel

andyp said:

I do wonder why some people watch pro cycling. As soon as anyone does a brilliant ride, they just start with the accusations.

Sadly as you know, if you’ve been watching a long time that’s the sort of baggage that comes with it. I like to enjoy a performance in the moment, but nothing really shocks me anymore.

blazing_saddles

DeadCalm said:

andyp said:

I do wonder why some people watch pro cycling. As soon as anyone does a brilliant ride, they just start with the accusations.

There is brilliant and then there is ridiculous. This from a rider who in the words of his own father "won nothing" as a youngster, who managed a distant 62nd in the Tour de l'Avenir won by Pogacar despite being a year older and was generally mediocre until suddenly, again in the words of his father "boom, boom, boom" he was one of (ha!) the best in the world. I am one who is generally willing to suspend disbelief, but there are limits.

He actually finished an even more distant 67th.

Quite the stellar edition.

Vlasov, Almeida, Felix Gall, Ivan Sosa all finished in the top 15.
Thymen Arensman was runner up, but it's the rider who finished third who most merits a mention: Gino Mäder.

orraloon

Bzzzt!

As ever, The Clinic -----> awaits if one wishes to go down that particular plughole.

(And, no surprise, it's buzzing.)

DeadCalm

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

andyp said:

I do wonder why some people watch pro cycling. As soon as anyone does a brilliant ride, they just start with the accusations.

There is brilliant and then there is ridiculous. This from a rider who in the words of his own father "won nothing" as a youngster, who managed a distant 62nd in the Tour de l'Avenir won by Pogacar despite being a year older and was generally mediocre until suddenly, again in the words of his father "boom, boom, boom" he was one of (ha!) the best in the world. I am one who is generally willing to suspend disbelief, but there are limits.

He actually finished an even more distant 67th.

Quite the stellar edition.

Vlasov, Almeida, Felix Gall, Ivan Sosa all finished in the top 15.
Thymen Arensman was runner up, but it's the rider who finished third who most merits a mention: Gino Mäder.

You're right. Shame on me, but I had forgotten. He brilliantly won the final stage too.

amrushton

Dorset_Boy said:

Coupled with Wout's extra-ordinary performances, Jumbo appear to have reverted to their ancestor, Rabbobank.
Too many unbelievable performaces sadly.

And Christoph LaPorte who was good at Cofidis but suddenly became a winner on joining JV.

wallace_and_gromit

r0bh said:

rick_chasey said:

phreak said:

Has there been a more dominant time trial in Tour history? I'm struggling to think of one. Not Indurain. Not Ullrich. Not Armstrong.

Yeah Lance was stronger than that in 2004. Put a minute into Ulrich up the Alp which was sandwiched by mountain stage wins by Lance, and then backed it up with another 1 minute thrashing of Ullrich in the end of week 3 TT.

The USP team also obliterated the rest of the field in the TTT that year.

1 minute is less than 1 minute 38 seconds, and even less if you do it as seconds per overall time

Deleted.

Pross

stage_hunter said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

We're talking a 10% time gap between 1st and 3rd. Ignore cycling, I'm struggling to think of many elite sporting events where there has been such a margin. Even something notably batshit like Kratochvílová's world record run the difference between 1st and 3rd was only like 2.5%. 10% is absolutely vast.

To play devil’s advocate a chunk of the time was made up by taking greater risks on the descents and another chunk by a bike change that didn’t bring any benefit. Ciccone did the climb faster.

I didnt notice Van Aert change bikes

Van Aert has been wasting energy on ridiculous moves towing the break and, when not doing that, towing Jonas for the past two weeks. It has been regularly commented on during the stage threads that whilst he appears superhuman even he has his limits. You would also expect the best climbers in the race to gain significant time over him on a stage with this amount of climbing. Look at the PTP picks, how many thought he would win the stage? If he’d been closer people would have commented on how dodgy it is that he managed to stay close to the world’s best climbers on such a hilly stage.

I have to admit to not being completely comfortable with what I was watching but O don’t think it is quite as bad as some are making out.

pb21

andyp said:

I do wonder why some people watch pro cycling. As soon as anyone does a brilliant ride, they just start with the accusations.

I've been watching pro cycling for 20+ years and haven't raised so much as an eyebrow during the past 10-years or so. That was the most dominant performance I have seen in those past 10-years, possibly ever....

rick_chasey

phreak said:

rick_chasey said:

phreak said:

Has there been a more dominant time trial in Tour history? I'm struggling to think of one. Not Indurain. Not Ullrich. Not Armstrong.

Yeah Lance was stronger than that in 2004. Put a minute into Ulrich up the Alp which was sandwiched by mountain stage wins by Lance, and then backed it up with another 1 minute thrashing of Ullrich in the end of week 3 TT.

The USP team also obliterated the rest of the field in the TTT that year.

In the 39 minutes it took LA to win that stage, he took 61 seconds out of Ullrich and 1m41 out of Kloden. You have to get to outside the top 20 to see the kind of relative time gaps JV just put into WvA in 3rd place. It's not even comparable.

Yeah because he was smashing everyone by minutes every other day.

Not in the one haymaker TT.

It’s a remarkable TT but I’m not having this “stronger than even Lance or Indurain” nonsense.

It was on for the closest tour ever running into week 3.

Over shorter distances it’s also easier to make proportionally bigger gaps as a second is worth proportionally more so you’re not comparing apples with apples.

You can disbelieve it if you want but let’s not pretend this is like the bad old days.

Firstly, if it was, why are only the same two lads on whatever the juice is, and secondly what is the juice that makes such a difference? We have tests for all the EPO variants currently.

Dorset_Boy

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

rick_chasey

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

focuszing723

...

rick_chasey

So how does that work?

Dorset_Boy

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....

JimD666

Dorset_Boy said:

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

Wasn't the same thing being said about Froome and Sky?

Just finished listening to a BBC Podcast revisiting Pantani's death and one of the things that struck me was that the major Pharmaceutical Companies now let the Anti Doping groups know what's in their pipeline for release. This gives them a chance to develop tests before the stuff hits the market. I know that leaves a "backyard" chemist developing something but who in the right mind would take that?!

I'd rather go Jonas just got everything right on the day. Pog didn't.

stage_hunter

JimD666 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

Wasn't the same thing being said about Froome and Sky?

Just finished listening to a BBC Podcast revisiting Pantani's death and one of the things that struck me was that the major Pharmaceutical Companies now let the Anti Doping groups know what's in their pipeline for release. This gives them a chance to develop tests before the stuff hits the market. I know that leaves a "backyard" chemist developing something but who in the right mind would take that?!

I'd rather go Jonas just got everything right on the day. Pog didn't.

Pog did. He smashed one of the best TTers in the world.

If clean, and I hope it is, it is possibly one of the greatest athletic performances in any sport of all time.

JimD666

stage_hunter said:

JimD666 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

Wasn't the same thing being said about Froome and Sky?

Just finished listening to a BBC Podcast revisiting Pantani's death and one of the things that struck me was that the major Pharmaceutical Companies now let the Anti Doping groups know what's in their pipeline for release. This gives them a chance to develop tests before the stuff hits the market. I know that leaves a "backyard" chemist developing something but who in the right mind would take that?!

I'd rather go Jonas just got everything right on the day. Pog didn't.

Pog did. He smashed one of the best TTers in the world.

If clean, and I hope it is, it is possibly one of the greatest athletic performances in any sport of all time.

I meant in comparison to Jonas rather than overall.

phreak

rick_chasey said:

phreak said:

rick_chasey said:

phreak said:

Has there been a more dominant time trial in Tour history? I'm struggling to think of one. Not Indurain. Not Ullrich. Not Armstrong.

Yeah Lance was stronger than that in 2004. Put a minute into Ulrich up the Alp which was sandwiched by mountain stage wins by Lance, and then backed it up with another 1 minute thrashing of Ullrich in the end of week 3 TT.

The USP team also obliterated the rest of the field in the TTT that year.

In the 39 minutes it took LA to win that stage, he took 61 seconds out of Ullrich and 1m41 out of Kloden. You have to get to outside the top 20 to see the kind of relative time gaps JV just put into WvA in 3rd place. It's not even comparable.

Yeah because he was smashing everyone by minutes every other day.

Not in the one haymaker TT.

It’s a remarkable TT but I’m not having this “stronger than even Lance or Indurain” nonsense.

It was on for the closest tour ever running into week 3.

Over shorter distances it’s also easier to make proportionally bigger gaps as a second is worth proportionally more so you’re not comparing apples with apples.

You can disbelieve it if you want but let’s not pretend this is like the bad old days.

Firstly, if it was, why are only the same two lads on whatever the juice is, and secondly what is the juice that makes such a difference? We have tests for all the EPO variants currently.

I'm just going by the results. Neither Indurain, Ullrich, or Armstrong gave their rivals the beating that JV just gave to the entire field. I have no idea what's going down, but the result today is the most comprehensive duffing the sport has seen in a bloody long time. If you don't think that's extraordinary then I don't know what is.

amrushton

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

The science is always ahead of the testing and if they were taking something you would have to know what you are testing for and make the substance(s) illegal

larkim

Today was all about who came into the stage with the best reserves left. I wonder that a fresh Thomas or Roglic would have posted on today's session without 2 weeks or GT in the legs?

I'm perfectly happy to believe that what we saw today was one rider who could hang with another for a GT that lasted two weeks, with the other rider having the capacity to go deeper into the third.

rick_chasey

amrushton said:

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

The science is always ahead of the testing and if they were taking something you would have to know what you are testing for and make the substance(s) illegal

We’d have heard rumours by now. Do you not remember cycling in the 90s and 00s?

We all knew it.

wallace_and_gromit

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

IIRC, EPO was in use for a fair while before it was generally acknowledged as a thing.

Maybe we’re in a 2008 scenario when CERA (new style of EPO) was in widespread use before WADA started testing for it.

r0bh

JimD666 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

Wasn't the same thing being said about Froome and Sky?

Well yes, but they had to endure pretty much daily questions about doping, crowds booing and throwing urine at riders etc. Which thus far Jumbo have not

wallace_and_gromit

EPO use was rampant for 7-8 years before a test was developed for it.

wallace_and_gromit

r0bh said:

JimD666 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Wout's performances last year in the Tour and again this year are other worldly. No way should he be one of the last 2 domestiques on a mountain stage, but he usually is.
And then there's Jonas's performance today, and others have highlighted, he wasn't anything until the last 18 months or so.
Common thread, Jumbo.....

For all our sakes, I pray JV, WvA and Jumbo aren't doing anything dodgy, but it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of their performances.

Wasn't the same thing being said about Froome and Sky?

Well yes, but they had to endure pretty much daily questions about doping, crowds booing and throwing urine at riders etc. Which thus far Jumbo have not

Jumbo don’t have Dave Brailsford as DS though. Brailsford knew how to win things but had a quite unique gift of being able to wind traditionalists up to breaking point without even trying. So there wasn’t much love for Sky before they’d even turned a pedal in anger.

DeVlaeminck

Well at least we know why Jumbo weren't too bothered about attacking in the last few mountain stages.

Who knows how Jumbo are doing it but I think they must have something that other teams haven't cottoned on to yet.

DeadCalm

rick_chasey said:

amrushton said:

rick_chasey said:

So what are they taking?

Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.

The science is always ahead of the testing and if they were taking something you would have to know what you are testing for and make the substance(s) illegal

We’d have heard rumours by now. Do you not remember cycling in the 90s and 00s?

We all knew it.

There were more denying it back then than there are now.

I feel like I've just watched a magician's assistant sawn in half and then pop up grinning. I have no idea how it was done, but I'm pretty sure it was an illusion.

jimmyjams

Dorset_Boy said:

Coupled with Wout's extra-ordinary performances, Jumbo appear to have reverted to their ancestor, Rabbobank.
Too many unbelievable performaces sadly.

Coincidentally, or not, the Jumbo DS Grischa Niemann rode for Rabobank. In 2013 he admitted that during his cycling career, he sometimes used EPO between 2000 and 2003.
But on the other hand, Gianetti (!) is in charge at UAE and the Slovenian Cycling Federation never tests its professionals.
????

jimmyjams

blazing_saddles said:

With about 20 minutes of the TT left, Rob Hatch confidently announced that everybody was safe by 2-3 minutes from being Hors Delay...............
........well, 20 minutes later, the Cofidis rider Alexis Renard, who finished last at 10:46, was outside the 33% time limit today.

Renard missed the cut-off by only one second – maybe the jury will be generous.
Perhaps since Renard was one of those riders at the beginning of the TT who fell at the first curve – apparently one of the white road markings there was slippy.