TDF 2023: Stage 16:- Passy to Combloux, 22.4km ITT ***Spoilers***
Comments
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Vingegaard's bike handling on the TT bike was utterly incredible. Phenomenal how he was railing the descent. Bilbao was super smooth, but Vingegaard was just so fast. Even looked incredibly fast.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20232
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I find the lack of attention to aerodynamics in track running baffling. A 400m is run at an average of around 20mph. In a 100m or 200m they’re averaging around 23mph and hit up to 27mph. I get that they need clothing that allows a greater range of movement than cycling but there must be some benefits and as you say many of the women have huge ponytails (which are usually actually wigs attached to very short natural haircuts). The only person I really remember taking aerodynamics seriously was Kathy Freeman.jimmyjams said:
I remember Fignon – I was young and camping in France the day in 1984 he took the jersey - I followed the TdF on France-Inter radio and it was so exciting listening with no pictures or TV - like some people still praise radio-commentaries of football matches being better than TV coverage (not that i agree, but anyway it's an opinion, and was true for me that Fignon day)mididoctors said:
I remember Some one calculated fignon's pony tail drag back in the day in a letter to the comic ( jesus I'm old)jimmyjams said:An acquaintance of mine suggested that Pogacar lost 10 secs at the bike change, 25 secs as Vingegaard had a better aerodynamic position when needed (on the flat & downhill), 20 secs towards the end because Vingegaard was spurred on by hearing he had a marked lead (and Pogacar negatively affected by hearing this), and 5 secs because for three-quarters of stage Pogacar rode with his cycling glasses up on his helmet, not before his eyes. In total that's one minute of the final 1-38.
It may be true but it amused me to think having the glasses up could be measurable contributory factor, and thus whether it could be even more than 5 secs over that distance.
I find the idea of a ponytail-drag quite logical, but maybe I am wrong, because you see lots of female cyclists with ponytails. Also many female track runners have ponytails, even over the 'short' 400 m distance, where I would think a drag effect may be very significant.
I am happy if a ponytail has no negative effect – for years I had hair no longer than 1 cm, but with hairdressers being closed during the Covid lockdowns, I let it grow, and now have a (short) ponytail myself!0 -
Yep, he was visibly so much faster to the point I thought it was going to overdo it. The only other rider I saw come close was probably Pidcock but he wasn’t riding as hard between the bends. It was also noticeable when they did a split screen how much quicker Jonas was around the first bend. He must have gained a second simply around that corner and also then had the benefit of the retained speed.m.r.m. said:Vingegaard's bike handling on the TT bike was utterly incredible. Phenomenal how he was railing the descent. Bilbao was super smooth, but Vingegaard was just so fast. Even looked incredibly fast.
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I think we're all missing the fact that this was a well prepped Ving two weeks into a hard Tour against a relatively less well prepped Pog at the same stage.
It's one thing for both guys to be well matched for the first 12-13 days, it's another to expect that they will continue to be well matched throughout the whole 3 weeks.
I'm a glass half full sort of guy in relation to the obvious questions being raised today. My answer is that Ving was just in a better position than anyone else, including Pog, to ride a great TT today with the cumulative fatigue present. And the pair of them are head and shoulders above the rest as they've shown all race so far.
Ving clearly had an exceptional day - so let's give him a 10-15s bonus for exceptionalism. Pog had an under-par day so let's give him a similar amount. Then allow for a 10s margin between them. That only leaves c50s to be explained by their relative positions in terms of being well prepped for this Tour. Feels ok to me.2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #4s)
2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)0 -
I can certainly understand the cynicism after watching that ride but this is the main question. There might be a bit more money in cycling these days but no-one is putting the amount into pharmaceutical research that would be needed to produce a performance enhancing drug.rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
All the things used in the past have been developed for medical use and then their performance enhancing effects have meant they’ve been used in sport. If there was anything new around then surely it would be common knowledge?0 -
To me Pogacar is the best cyclist in the world. By a margin. Second place can be argued. Vingegaard might just be proving to be the better and best GC rider in the world.
He has mostly only lost time bonuses to Pogacar and may very well beat him by minutes again. He is the much better descender and seems better at altitude and on the very long climbs as well.
Having WVA as a satellite rider is also a wild card, no one else has. That alone makes Pogacar being able to attack long range almost impossible. Even if he were to drop Vingegaard, Vingegaard only needs to ride to wattage until joining up with WVA and then can get dragged by WVA back to Pogacar (or limit damage). Vingegaard gets substantial rest compared to Pogacar having to go all out and then bridge the remaining distance himself if necessary.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20231 -
My view of Pogs bike change from 5m away...my son's reaction says it all.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cu2EonHokyo/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==
Compared to WVA and JV he looked cooked.
Kung also.
He practiced the change at least 3 times yesterday and twice this morning.
UAE mechanics did a much much smoother job than Felix Gall's took them 30sec to fic the tt bike onto the rack.
WVA took his minute man at the exact same spot. He seemed faster than JV at that location, but immediately after it the road kicked into double digits.4 -
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄0 -
Anyway, utterly spurious doping accusations aside.
Vingers’ speed on the descent was just amazing. Looked absolutely right on the limit.
Not surprised he hit the fastest speed of the day at 80something kph.3 -
This is a good point, although my thoughts are that the next wave of doping will be instigated by richer sports, coming up with tailored products that meet exact demands of top-level pro sport (and are currently undetectable). Imagine how much cash certain sports could throw at research.Pross said:
I can certainly understand the cynicism after watching that ride but this is the main question. There might be a bit more money in cycling these days but no-one is putting the amount into pharmaceutical research that would be needed to produce a performance enhancing drug.rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
All the things used in the past have been developed for medical use and then their performance enhancing effects have meant they’ve been used in sport. If there was anything new around then surely it would be common knowledge?
If that’s the case, then it’s not too much of a leap to see a dodgy doctor offering it to other clients.0 -
It was a properly aggressive ride from start to finish.rick_chasey said:Anyway, utterly spurious doping accusations aside.
Vingers’ speed on the descent was just amazing. Looked absolutely right on the limit.
Not surprised he hit the fastest speed of the day at 80something kph.1 -
I agree a lot about the WvA factor . The Guy can dictate the shape of a stagem.r.m. said:To me Pogacar is the best cyclist in the world. By a margin. Second place can be argued. Vingegaard might just be proving to be the better and best GC rider in the world.
He has mostly only lost time bonuses to Pogacar and may very well beat him by minutes again. He is the much better descender and seems better at altitude and on the very long climbs as well.
Having WVA as a satellite rider is also a wild card, no one else has. That alone makes Pogacar being able to attack long range almost impossible. Even if he were to drop Vingegaard, Vingegaard only needs to ride to wattage until joining up with WVA and then can get dragged by WVA back to Pogacar (or limit damage). Vingegaard gets substantial rest compared to Pogacar having to go all out and then bridge the remaining distance himself if necessary.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
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One is always entitled to an opinion, and if you think JV was legit yesterday then that's fine. But to dismiss accusations of doping in pro cycling as spurious, given the sport's unfortunate history with doping, does feel a little optimistic.rick_chasey said:Anyway, utterly spurious doping accusations aside.
AFAIK, cycling is the only sport where in respect of its flagship event (the Tour de France) there are years (the Lance era) where it is felt inappropriate to declare a winner due to the number of busted dopers in the results!
Eyebrows are always likely to be raised, after "unbelievable" performances the day after the second rest day.
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Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.0 -
Wiggins lost weight to be almost skeletal during his GC days. That's not a valid comparisonwallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.1 -
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
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Be interesting to see if Jonas takes the Armstrong route of just targeting the Tour or whether he tries to win some classics. On yesterday's form he could certainly add a stack of monuments.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.andytee87 said:
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour1 -
Cheers, I'm surprised it's so much between Pog & Jonas, whilst JV is obviously leaner, 6kg is a lot.Dorset_Boy said:
Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.andytee87 said:
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour
Just for reference seeing as Ulrich was used as an example above this quote is from c.2002 I think
"Jan Ullrich is reported to have already reached his ideal weight for this time of year. "He'll come back from the training camp in South Africa weighing 76 kg, his ideal competition weight," said personal mentor and future directeur sportif Rudy Pevenage"
I think by 2005 they were looking at 72-73kg for him, but that's a big difference to the modern GC rider weights0 -
He's got the biggest Grand Tour engine in the peloton but he's 78 kilos, which precludes him from being a GC contender.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
That's basically it.
His recovery is excellent, and that's what sets him apart from MvdP. Over one day, it's quite obvious MvdP has the edge.
Plus, I think tactically he's pretty weak, but in his role in GTs that is hidden/not necessary.
Wiggins was the last 70+ kilo GT winner and a) that was the flattest Tour in living memory and b) he was only *just* over 70 kilos.
Lance was around what, 75kg? and that was heavily asterixed.0 -
I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.Dorset_Boy said:
Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.andytee87 said:
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour
I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.
Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.
(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.0 -
*what was he on*wallace_and_gromit said:
One is always entitled to an opinion, and if you think JV was legit yesterday then that's fine. But to dismiss accusations of doping in pro cycling as spurious, given the sport's unfortunate history with doping, does feel a little optimistic.rick_chasey said:Anyway, utterly spurious doping accusations aside.
AFAIK, cycling is the only sport where in respect of its flagship event (the Tour de France) there are years (the Lance era) where it is felt inappropriate to declare a winner due to the number of busted dopers in the results!
Eyebrows are always likely to be raised, after "unbelievable" performances the day after the second rest day.
Look. 90s and 00s doping was transformed by one drug and one drug alone; EPO.
Doping went on for ages before that but they never really made *that* much different. You were playing at the edges.
EPO genuinely changed people from bang average to world beating.
Right?
So unless there's some new drug that's just like EPO that no-one has heard about before, you're just doing a "no smoke without fire" accusation, with nothing to support it other than the bloke doing really well in the top bike race (which, after all, is sort of the point of competing in a bike race).
And even if there is some transformational drug no-one has heard of yet, why are only about 5 riders taking it?
People bang on about a ride that's never been so dominant, including comparing to all the doping years, so clearly doping is not the factor in deciding how dominant a ride is or not?!2 -
Best 'road' cyclist......In a multi discipline sport, calling somebody the best when they only do one discipline is a bit much.m.r.m. said:To me Pogacar is the best cyclist in the world. By a margin. Second place can be argued.
All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."0 -
Plus plus *plus*
Everyone in the modern peloton talks about, how, especially in TTs, the kit makes such a big difference and when you see teams wholesale doing better than usual in TTs specifically, it can be usually put down to the kit.
Boonen comments aside, it's pretty common in those circles to say that the Colnago is a slow TT bike and that these modern Cervelo TTs are fast, and that Jumbo have really been successful in bringing the fastest kit.0 -
Cervelo TT bikes have always been fast, certainly as far as I can remember they have been renowned as being at the forefront of aero. Maybe the Scott Plasma also rapid.0
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I don't think it's that ridiculous a BMI. Mine would have been 19.8 (slightly shorter and a 68kg) when I raced regularly (at a very low level) and whilst I was very lean I wouldn't have looked unusually thin. I definitely didn't look as skinny as GT Wiggins did. The NHS shows the lowest healthy BMI as being from 18.5.wallace_and_gromit said:
I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.Dorset_Boy said:
Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.andytee87 said:
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour
I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.
Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.
(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.
I'm more dubious of the difference quoted for Jonas and Pog.1 -
I can quite believe Wiggins was that weight - I'm 194cm and 76kg and while slim, look absolutely nothing like those physiques.wallace_and_gromit said:
I'm not being unduly cynical here, but I don't believe Wiggo raced at 69kg. That's a BMI of 19.1, which is freakishly low. (Pog's Wiki height and weight <=> BMI of 21.3, which is entirely plausible, though maybe a tad higher than ideal. Ullrich's BMI per Wiki data = 21.8) He was a skinny dude in his Tour days, that's for sure, but there was still a lot of him by climbing standards. And he was obviously far superior as a climber vs Wout as he won the Tour, which for all Wout's attributes, is likely not something Wout will achieve.Dorset_Boy said:
Wiggins and Wout are the same height (1.9 m) according to Google.andytee87 said:
Wiggins, Froome, Hesjedal are GT GC winners over 6ft like Wout but they all got very lean. WVA looks race fit fine, but no way has he got a climbers build. His race weight is at least 8kg heavier than Wiggins I think.wallace_and_gromit said:
Wiggo was a pretty big unit by Grand Tour climber standards. Not as spectacular as Wout, but clearly a very good climber in 2011/2012.Dorset_Boy said:
Do you have an explanation as to how Wout is one of the best 4 mountain domestiques in the world?rick_chasey said:
Maybe wout should start taking drugs in the spring then too?Dorset_Boy said:
Given how often riders are tested, particularly when in yellow, along with the bio-passport, who knows?rick_chasey said:So what are they taking?
Maybe you don’t remember but back in the day we had a pretty good idea what they were all on.
But Wout's grand tour performances, and Jonas's today, simply aren't close to be normal, even for the best cyclists in the world.
Maybe they are just uniquely good, generational talents, but compare Wout with MvdP - MvdP beats hit at cyclocross, in classics and monuments, but can't ride up mountains like a 63 kg climber as Wout does.....
🙄🙄🙄🙄
He isn't built to climb mountains at the speed he does.
When was the last time someone his size climbed like he does?
Prior to that we're looking at Ullrich I think.
Wiggins's TdF weight was 69 kg, Wout is listed at 78 kg.
Pog is listed as 66 kg
Jonas as 60 kg
Froome as 67 kg at the Tour
I'd be surprised if Wout races on the road at 78kg. ('Cross season maybe.) I've seem him listed as 75kg elsewhere.
Which leads me to the obvious observation: riders' listed weights (*) are all part of the "smoke and mirrors". As are heights, surprisingly, as they're much easier to verify.
(*) as part of the "performance gains via weight loss" explanations.1 -
1'm 183 cm and 68-69 kg so that BMI figure isn't abnormal for wiggins.1
