Ronde van Vlaanderen 2023 *Spoilers* thread

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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    There were sections of that race with groups trying to bridge or make secondary breaks where the peloton was going 60kmh with 150 k to go
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Merckx and hinault would have been dropped by then
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    mididoctors said:

    Merckx and hinault would have been dropped by then

    In fairness they're 77 and 68
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    tailwindhome said:

    mididoctors said:

    Merckx and hinault would have been dropped by then

    In fairness they're 77 and 68
    Sound like the excuses of a loser
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    edited April 2023
    mididoctors said:

    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day

    And yet they seem to go faster up the climbs than those who were "fannying around" before they got to them. As an example, the 2023 MSR was run 20 minutes faster than the 1995 MSR, yet MvdP et al still took 6 seconds off the record set by Fondriest up the Poggio.

    It was mentioned previously about weight etc., but as a reference, 5m46 was the Fondriest record, and for the entirety of the Gilbert/Cancellara era, no one got below 6 minutes. Since 2019, no one has gone "abive" 6 minutes in the lead group, culminating in the record time this year by MvdP by 6 seconds.

    I've no idea what's causing it, but the current peloton is not only riding the entire race faster than ever, but they're riding the key moments of races faster than ever. Your later post about Merckx is right though, as MSR in those days usually ran about an hour longer than they take now.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Hinault could cycle through 300km of broken glass on a granite framed bike or so he claimed
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day

    And yet they seem to go faster up the climbs than those who were "fannying around" before they got to them. As an example, the 2023 MSR was run 20 minutes faster than the 1995 MSR, yet MvdP et al still took 6 seconds off the record set by Fondriest up the Poggio.

    It was mentioned previously about weight etc., but as a reference, 5m46 was the Fondriest record, and for the entirety of the Gilbert/Cancellara era, no one got below 6 minutes. Since 2019, no one has gone "abive" 6 minutes in the lead group, culminating in the record time this year by MvdP by 6 seconds.

    I've no idea what's causing it, but the current peloton is not only riding the entire race faster than ever, but they're riding the key moments of races faster than ever. Your later post about Merckx is right though, as MSR in those days usually ran about an hour longer than they take now.
    As late as the 1990s a lot of the classics were ridden at laughable paces for the first half .. and when things got remotely fiesty half the peloton would pack
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    mididoctors said:

    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day

    And yet they seem to go faster up the climbs than those who were "fannying around" before they got to them. As an example, the 2023 MSR was run 20 minutes faster than the 1995 MSR, yet MvdP et al still took 6 seconds off the record set by Fondriest up the Poggio.

    It was mentioned previously about weight etc., but as a reference, 5m46 was the Fondriest record, and for the entirety of the Gilbert/Cancellara era, no one got below 6 minutes. Since 2019, no one has gone "abive" 6 minutes in the lead group, culminating in the record time this year by MvdP by 6 seconds.

    I've no idea what's causing it, but the current peloton is not only riding the entire race faster than ever, but they're riding the key moments of races faster than ever. Your later post about Merckx is right though, as MSR in those days usually ran about an hour longer than they take now.
    As late as the 1990s a lot of the classics were ridden at laughable paces for the first half .. and when things got remotely fiesty half the peloton would pack
    It's a noticeable change. The last two MSR have seen them go over the Cipressa in times comparable to what Pantani managed in 1999, which is a good 2/3kmh faster than during the "Team Sky era" (2010-2019).
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day

    And yet they seem to go faster up the climbs than those who were "fannying around" before they got to them. As an example, the 2023 MSR was run 20 minutes faster than the 1995 MSR, yet MvdP et al still took 6 seconds off the record set by Fondriest up the Poggio.

    It was mentioned previously about weight etc., but as a reference, 5m46 was the Fondriest record, and for the entirety of the Gilbert/Cancellara era, no one got below 6 minutes. Since 2019, no one has gone "abive" 6 minutes in the lead group, culminating in the record time this year by MvdP by 6 seconds.

    I've no idea what's causing it, but the current peloton is not only riding the entire race faster than ever, but they're riding the key moments of races faster than ever. Your later post about Merckx is right though, as MSR in those days usually ran about an hour longer than they take now.
    As late as the 1990s a lot of the classics were ridden at laughable paces for the first half .. and when things got remotely fiesty half the peloton would pack
    It's a noticeable change. The last two MSR have seen them go over the Cipressa in times comparable to what Pantani managed in 1999, which is a good 2/3kmh faster than during the "Team Sky era" (2010-2019).
    That's not really surprising having watched them though, is it?
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,787
    The bikes are probably all a kilo heavier than they were 10 years ago too.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Well.if they cheating what are they doing ...there's no bleed into the amateur ranks gossip wise

    Any one heard anything?

    It has to be pretty universal and very tightly controlled information wise.

    I ain't seen or heard a thing ?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    mididoctors said:

    Well.if they cheating what are they doing ...there's no bleed into the amateur ranks gossip wise

    Any one heard anything?

    It has to be pretty universal and very tightly controlled information wise.

    I ain't seen or heard a thing ?

    I'm not suggesting there is anything untoward as I have no idea, just that the emergence of Pogacar and the Vans around 2019 has seen a pretty significant shift both in terms of the speeds races/climbs are ridden at and also who is doing the winning, as Inner Ring noted today.

    https://inrng.com/2023/04/fantastic-five-win-rates/

    The history of the sport suggests that when something seems too good to be true then shenanigans are afoot, but I literally have no idea what is behind the boost.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    phreak said:

    shenanigans

    Ah ha...

    How is Ross these days? I thought he'd moved onto Trans Athletes...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
    You can watch it on youtube if you like, to see how different it is.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    ddraver said:

    phreak said:

    shenanigans

    Ah ha...

    How is Ross these days? I thought he'd moved onto Trans Athletes...
    I assume you mean Ross Tucker, but I'm afraid I don't see the link and am afraid I don't follow him so have no idea what he says on cycling today, much less on transgender athletes.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,154
    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day

    And yet they seem to go faster up the climbs than those who were "fannying around" before they got to them. As an example, the 2023 MSR was run 20 minutes faster than the 1995 MSR, yet MvdP et al still took 6 seconds off the record set by Fondriest up the Poggio.

    It was mentioned previously about weight etc., but as a reference, 5m46 was the Fondriest record, and for the entirety of the Gilbert/Cancellara era, no one got below 6 minutes. Since 2019, no one has gone "abive" 6 minutes in the lead group, culminating in the record time this year by MvdP by 6 seconds.

    I've no idea what's causing it, but the current peloton is not only riding the entire race faster than ever, but they're riding the key moments of races faster than ever. Your later post about Merckx is right though, as MSR in those days usually ran about an hour longer than they take now.
    Fondriest was riding when I first styarted regularly following cycling. The biggest surprised isn't that his record was broken it is that it lasted so long (28 years). Also, individual climb records are pointless without knowing things like wind speed and direction. Look at how amateur training was until the last 10 years, now even the French teams are starting to realise that you need to be a bit more scientific than 'this is what we've always done' (well, some of them anyway).
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
    You can watch it on youtube if you like, to see how different it is.
    Oh? I remember a group of around 30 hitting the Poggio, Nibali attacking early on with Gerrans following, and then Cancellara bridging across and driving the pace for the rest of the climb, with the three of them going over the top together. That's not a million miles from what happened this year, is it?
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,390
    mrb123 said:

    The bikes are probably all a kilo heavier than they were 10 years ago too.

    Hardly. The stock Aeroad CFR is 7.36 kg.
    I'm sure other bikes used will be similar weight.
    UCI weight limit is 6.80 kg.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
    You can watch it on youtube if you like, to see how different it is.
    Oh? I remember a group of around 30 hitting the Poggio, Nibali attacking early on with Gerrans following, and then Cancellara bridging across and driving the pace for the rest of the climb, with the three of them going over the top together. That's not a million miles from what happened this year, is it?
    Rabobank on the front with Mark Renshaw still there were not riding up the start of the Poggio anything like Bahrain were this year.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,787
    Dorset_Boy said:

    mrb123 said:

    The bikes are probably all a kilo heavier than they were 10 years ago too.

    Hardly. The stock Aeroad CFR is 7.36 kg.
    I'm sure other bikes used will be similar weight.
    UCI weight limit is 6.80 kg.
    What is it with pedals and mounts in a decent size?

    One of the cycling YouTube sites had one of Wout's Cervelos which they weighed at well over 8kg.

    When did you last hear of a team adding weights to get a bike over the weight limit?

    I maintain that discs, electronics, tubeless and all the rest has pretty much added a kilo across the board.

  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,197
    Uh oh. Attention please, The Clinic is that -------> way
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,645
    mrb123 said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    mrb123 said:

    The bikes are probably all a kilo heavier than they were 10 years ago too.

    Hardly. The stock Aeroad CFR is 7.36 kg.
    I'm sure other bikes used will be similar weight.
    UCI weight limit is 6.80 kg.
    What is it with pedals and mounts in a decent size?

    One of the cycling YouTube sites had one of Wout's Cervelos which they weighed at well over 8kg.

    When did you last hear of a team adding weights to get a bike over the weight limit?

    I maintain that discs, electronics, tubeless and all the rest has pretty much added a kilo across the board.

    They are for high mountain stages but sure, they're not short of things they can add to add weight before they go to bits of lead down the seat tube.

    Isn't it more than the idea of shaping the frame to be aero just didn't really exist for road bikes until about 2011.

    If any of you have a new bike and a 10 year old bike i'd be curious to see if you notice a difference, as a lot of people say the kit makes a big difference.
    _
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
    You can watch it on youtube if you like, to see how different it is.
    Oh? I remember a group of around 30 hitting the Poggio, Nibali attacking early on with Gerrans following, and then Cancellara bridging across and driving the pace for the rest of the climb, with the three of them going over the top together. That's not a million miles from what happened this year, is it?
    Rabobank on the front with Mark Renshaw still there were not riding up the start of the Poggio anything like Bahrain were this year.
    I've just watched it, and before the first bend in the road Agnoli had attacked for Liquigas, so I suspect that they were going as quickly as they could up it rather than soft pedalling, especially when the leading 3 attacked about halfway up. We're talking 2 of the best classics riders of their generation in Cancellara and Nibali and I'm not sure they'd get a look in against the big three today.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    edited April 2023
    orraloon said:

    Uh oh. Attention please, The Clinic is that -------> way



    Gotcha.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    phreak said:

    kingstongraham said:

    If you have more teams focussing on getting rid of all the sprinters, the race is going to go faster up the Cipressa than if they all ride to help their sprinter get to the finish.

    Not always the case though. If we go back to 2012, there were 3 riders contesting the finish, so the sprinters were shed before Cancellara, Nibali, and Gerrans contested the sprint. That year they were 35 seconds slower on the Cipressa and 53 seconds slower on the Poggio than they were this year. Cancellara that year was 6kmh slower than MvdP this year up the Poggio.
    You can watch it on youtube if you like, to see how different it is.
    Oh? I remember a group of around 30 hitting the Poggio, Nibali attacking early on with Gerrans following, and then Cancellara bridging across and driving the pace for the rest of the climb, with the three of them going over the top together. That's not a million miles from what happened this year, is it?
    Rabobank on the front with Mark Renshaw still there were not riding up the start of the Poggio anything like Bahrain were this year.
    I've just watched it, and before the first bend in the road Agnoli had attacked for Liquigas, so I suspect that they were going as quickly as they could up it rather than soft pedalling, especially when the leading 3 attacked about halfway up. We're talking 2 of the best classics riders of their generation in Cancellara and Nibali and I'm not sure they'd get a look in against the big three today.
    If you think they were going as hard as they could with Renshaw as their best option, there's no convincing you. Not soft pedalling either, but compare and contrast with Bahrain hooning it through the corner and up, then uae. Different races, different days.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    Gotta admit the nostaligia hit is rather nice...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    LOL
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,390
    rick_chasey said:

    mrb123 said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    mrb123 said:

    The bikes are probably all a kilo heavier than they were 10 years ago too.

    Hardly. The stock Aeroad CFR is 7.36 kg.
    I'm sure other bikes used will be similar weight.
    UCI weight limit is 6.80 kg.
    What is it with pedals and mounts in a decent size?

    One of the cycling YouTube sites had one of Wout's Cervelos which they weighed at well over 8kg.

    When did you last hear of a team adding weights to get a bike over the weight limit?

    I maintain that discs, electronics, tubeless and all the rest has pretty much added a kilo across the board.

    They are for high mountain stages but sure, they're not short of things they can add to add weight before they go to bits of lead down the seat tube.

    Isn't it more than the idea of shaping the frame to be aero just didn't really exist for road bikes until about 2011.

    If any of you have a new bike and a 10 year old bike i'd be curious to see if you notice a difference, as a lot of people say the kit makes a big difference.
    I have a 2014 (old shape) Aeroad (it's up for sale!) and a new Aeroad CF SLX.
    Very different looking bikes.
    The new version picks up speed quicker and feels like it holds that speed longer. Although only ridden a few times so far, it feels like a fast bike.
    I haven't noticed any weight penalty so far, but the new version is a little heavier as you'd expect, but think the aero improvements outweigh that.

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