Ronde van Vlaanderen 2023 *Spoilers* thread

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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,314
    phreak said:

    ocdupalais said:

    Last year was an exercise in Pog getting his strike point in like a boxer sizing his opponent up. He told everyone what his tactic would be…and can I just point out - and I know this organ is perhaps less inundated with the rabid bipolar tendencies of the past (i.e. fewer contributors overall= fewer twerps overall) - but isn’t is it pleasant and refreshing (or foolhardy 🤔?) that we can discuss the likes of Pog - and all those in his wake - without having to caveat everything on the basis that they’re probably doped?
    Somebody needs to do a Beatles “Yes, Tadej; all my troubles seemed so far away…” mash up vid with all his victims… I reckon it could easily stretch to a new one each season.

    We're seeing something that hasn't been seen at least since the days of Hinault, all while speeds on both the flat and the climbs are exceeding those from the 90s. Given the history of the sport I wouldn't want to stake my life on things being entirely clean.

    It was amusing watching the GCN programme on the Festina affair and the journalist saying how getting egg on his face prompted him to ask more questions about what he was seeing at the same time as GCN being super chummy with the protagonists of today and not asking any questions whatsoever.
    A bold statement that aero, weight and nutrition developments count for nowt.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,651
    kingstongraham said:

    To be fair, this is pretty good over the same period:


    Meh. On average he's only in 2nd place for the Ronde in the five times he's raced it..... ;-)
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    edited April 2023
    Interesting counterpoint to the (my) strongest guy in race theory...

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqj0aDYAn4e/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited April 2023
    ddraver said:

    Interesting counterpoint to the (my) strongest guy in race theory...

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqj0aDYAn4e/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

    Yeah, though it's chicken and egg - you can ride like that when you have super legs.

    I remember an interview with Boogard about when he had super legs. His DS told him to take it easy on a mountain descent, so he did.

    Anyway, 3/4s of the way down the team car pulls up and bollocks him for apparently hooning it down and gaining a minute on everyone. "When you have good legs, everything goes fast."
    _
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Dorset_Boy said:

    kingstongraham said:

    We're spoilt.


    That's poor in comparison to Pog and MvdP.
    (Whilst recognising he does have some very good Grand tour stage results)
    Cancellara had a run of 12 successive podium finishes in the classics between 2010-2015.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    edited April 2023
    pblakeney said:

    phreak said:

    ocdupalais said:

    Last year was an exercise in Pog getting his strike point in like a boxer sizing his opponent up. He told everyone what his tactic would be…and can I just point out - and I know this organ is perhaps less inundated with the rabid bipolar tendencies of the past (i.e. fewer contributors overall= fewer twerps overall) - but isn’t is it pleasant and refreshing (or foolhardy 🤔?) that we can discuss the likes of Pog - and all those in his wake - without having to caveat everything on the basis that they’re probably doped?
    Somebody needs to do a Beatles “Yes, Tadej; all my troubles seemed so far away…” mash up vid with all his victims… I reckon it could easily stretch to a new one each season.

    We're seeing something that hasn't been seen at least since the days of Hinault, all while speeds on both the flat and the climbs are exceeding those from the 90s. Given the history of the sport I wouldn't want to stake my life on things being entirely clean.

    It was amusing watching the GCN programme on the Festina affair and the journalist saying how getting egg on his face prompted him to ask more questions about what he was seeing at the same time as GCN being super chummy with the protagonists of today and not asking any questions whatsoever.
    A bold statement that aero, weight and nutrition developments count for nowt.
    I'd have a couple of answers in response to that. Firstly, as I mentioned, Pogacar is doing things we haven't seen for a really, really long time, and probably with only two other riders in the history of the sport. That's pretty noteworthy.

    Secondly, we've seen a pretty big jump in speeds since the Froome era, during which time we were told that marginal gains were being exploited anywhere and everywhere. Despite that, they were climbing quite a bit slower than they were during the Gewiss to Armstrong era, which prompted many to believe that we were watching clean racing again.

    Now they're back up towards those times again, and even above them (I'm sure they set a record on the Poggio this year, for instance). So what we're really saying is that aero, weight, and nutrition developments have improved significantly over what they were during the Froome era.

    You seem to know your stuff in that regard. Do you think they have?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,133
    ddraver said:

    Not much different to Phil Gil IMO...

    Pog's run there is slightly better than any he had, but it's the consistency of the three of them - no DNF, not even outside the top 10.

    When you're looking at Gilbert, Cancellara, Boonen for comparisons, it's looking pretty good.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I meant more as a "light guy" who won PR. It's definitely doable.

    (The last 11km is probably the first time MvdP has ever wished he'd spent a little more time on his TT bike...)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,133
    :D
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    mididoctors said:

    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive

    He's incredible.

    One thing though. And he can't help this and it's entirely irrelevant. He doesn't *look* fast or imposing on a bike.

    Lad could be anyone thin on a bike if it wasn't for the fact he's absolutely hooning it faster than anyone.
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Can i also say again what a cracking race it was?

    I did actually sit and watch 230km of it! The only other time I can think I've done that is P-R 2016
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    kingstongraham said:

    :D


    I was hoping for more reaction tbh

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    ddraver said:

    Interesting counterpoint to the (my) strongest guy in race theory...

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqj0aDYAn4e/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

    That is the difference between him and all the others. He doesn't just brute force everything like MvdP or WVA. In the stage of Paris Nice where he first dropped Vingegaard he was super patient and surgical with his effort.
    He is the complete racer. He does everything exceptionally well, except descending which is still solid.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    mididoctors said:

    kingstongraham said:

    :D


    I was hoping for more reaction tbh

    Just think how insane it is, that there isn't even much opposition to that statement.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    m.r.m. said:

    mididoctors said:

    kingstongraham said:

    :D


    I was hoping for more reaction tbh

    Just think how insane it is, that there isn't even much opposition to that statement.
    Maybe it's true
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,133
    I'd do the same screenshot for Merckx but it wouldn't fit.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    mididoctors said:

    m.r.m. said:

    mididoctors said:

    kingstongraham said:

    :D


    I was hoping for more reaction tbh

    Just think how insane it is, that there isn't even much opposition to that statement.
    Maybe it's true
    He’s still so young.
    _
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,548
    mididoctors said:

    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive

    Is it? I'd argue the Merckx era was special because of the quality of opposition he beat, i.e. De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Ocana, Poulidor, Godefroot, Guimard, Motta, Moser, Van Springel et al.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    andyp said:

    mididoctors said:

    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive

    Is it? I'd argue the Merckx era was special because of the quality of opposition he beat, i.e. De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Ocana, Poulidor, Godefroot, Guimard, Motta, Moser, Van Springel et al.
    And the fact he won anything and everything all the time.
    _
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,548
    He was a true phenomenon.

    I still think comparing eras is of little point or value. I just appreciate how lucky we are to be able to enjoy this era where we have the opportunity to see three era defining riders regularly competing head to head on a range of terrains.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Must have been such a snooze.
    _
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,308
    Interesting stats, (re: average speed):

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/tadej-pogacar-claims-kwaremont-paterberg-strava-kom-in-tour-of-flanders-romp
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited April 2023
    andyp said:

    mididoctors said:

    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive

    Is it? I'd argue the Merckx era was special because of the quality of opposition he beat, i.e. De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Ocana, Poulidor, Godefroot, Guimard, Motta, Moser, Van Springel et al.
    Riders from as many as four different countries
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    Pogacar has 4 monuments

    Nibali 3
    Schleck 1

    That's the total, as far as I can see of post 1985 Tour winners who have won a monument

    Fignon was a 1984 Tour winner who won his monuments in 88 &89


    (Nibali continues to be criminally underrated by this forum)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    edited April 2023
    andyp said:

    mididoctors said:

    Pog is better than hinault and merckx. His opposition is way more impressive

    Is it? I'd argue the Merckx era was special because of the quality of opposition he beat, i.e. De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Ocana, Poulidor, Godefroot, Guimard, Motta, Moser, Van Springel et al.
    [Troll] Bunch of also rans [/troll]
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    edited April 2023
    Ocana got unlucky with crashes... But if it wasn't so it would have just moved merckx out of the 5 times club 🤷‍♂️
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Merckx and hinault never won a flanders that contested... ridden that hard all day .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    That was full gas pretty much for 270km except a pause after the break finally went after 100,k and that didn't last long
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    The reason it's higher average speeds these days isn't because of miracle potions (if they are what is it?) its because the peloton isn't fannying around for half the day
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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