A bonailie, Nicola

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Not picking a fight but why would you not want all of those things for all other countries?

I do, as I am sure do most people. My point (perhaps badly worded) was that there is a small percentage of UK citizens (largely English IMO) who value sovereignty over the actual prosperity of the UK and dress this up as "patriotism".

MidlandsGrimpeur2

For the same reason I don't want Brexit I don't want independence, but I do think in the context of the UK the Scots have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Do they? Can't say it is something I have ever experienced.

For a country that gave us the 'Enlightenment', Scotland's contribution to philosophical and intellectual developments across the world is pretty impressive.

The value of a nation is not determined solely by it's economic output or it's current GDP.

First.Aspect

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

For the same reason I don't want Brexit I don't want independence, but I do think in the context of the UK the Scots have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Do they? Can't say it is something I have ever experienced.

For a country that gave us the 'Enlightenment', Scotland's contribution to philosophical and intellectual developments across the world is pretty impressive.

The value of a nation is not determined solely by it's economic output or it's current GDP.

What the Scots don't appreciate is that the impact was only transmitted so widely because it was part of the British empire at the time. Otherwise, who would have cared?

I agree with whoever said the Scots have an over inflated opinion of their nation's importance. It leads to the same sort of rhetoric that assures its population that our main trading partner will be happy to do a favourable deal with us if we leave their trading block.

#ironyalert

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Fair point with regards 'Enlightenment', although it was still a uniquely Scottish proposition, which suggests a country that had the intellectual and moral conditions in place to foster it. I think that holds great value and says a lot about the country (albeit a fair while back!).

Stevo_666

pinkbikini said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Why would anyone be interested in the gross contribution over net?

You are being thick and I would recommend not dying on a hill quite this stupid.

Look, I know that the 'Lie on the side of the bus' is one of the central pillars of faith of the Eurobollox cult so I can understand why you are getting so wound up about this being debunked, but it's doesn't justify all the inverse intellectual snobbery that we've seen from you today.

Lol debunked. Don’t flatter yourself

Try using some facts and stats rather than just chucking insults and assuming that your right.

You can’t argue that £350m per week is a lie, but you can argue it was a duplicitous misrepresentation by a known liar. That’s a boring argument that’s been done to death.

Jeremy Hunt (as Health Sec) pledged an additional £20bn to NHS in 2018, separate to any Brexit ‘bonus’ from EU exit. A good thing. Given an agreed (I think) 1.2% pa budget increase for NHS funding, that makes the majority of the budget increase you quoted. There are clear indicators where the rest came from, documented by BMA,
OBR, etc.

Can you provide stats/evidence to back up your implied argument, that NHS budgets have risen off the back of savings made from Brexit? I had a look but can’t find anything concrete. Of course, you might know more than anyone else…

It was in line with our gross contributions. Anyone was free to question that at the time, but chose not to. Hey ho.

Regardless of whether it was gross or net, the increase in the NHS budget since then is larger than either the gross or the net amount, so the point about finding the NHS by at least than amount has been met. Can you disprove the rationale? I don't think so.

Maybe we can call it the 'Not unreasonable statement on the side of the bus' from now on.

kingstongraham

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

This.
Not only was it a flat out lie but it was called out at the time too.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

The rebate technically happened the year after the payment, so should be discounted based on the credit quality of the EU.

pinno

Stevo_666 said:

pinkbikini said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Why would anyone be interested in the gross contribution over net?

You are being thick and I would recommend not dying on a hill quite this stupid.

Look, I know that the 'Lie on the side of the bus' is one of the central pillars of faith of the Eurobollox cult so I can understand why you are getting so wound up about this being debunked, but it's doesn't justify all the inverse intellectual snobbery that we've seen from you today.

Lol debunked. Don’t flatter yourself

Try using some facts and stats rather than just chucking insults and assuming that your right.

You can’t argue that £350m per week is a lie, but you can argue it was a duplicitous misrepresentation by a known liar. That’s a boring argument that’s been done to death.

Jeremy Hunt (as Health Sec) pledged an additional £20bn to NHS in 2018, separate to any Brexit ‘bonus’ from EU exit. A good thing. Given an agreed (I think) 1.2% pa budget increase for NHS funding, that makes the majority of the budget increase you quoted. There are clear indicators where the rest came from, documented by BMA,
OBR, etc.

Can you provide stats/evidence to back up your implied argument, that NHS budgets have risen off the back of savings made from Brexit? I had a look but can’t find anything concrete. Of course, you might know more than anyone else…

It was in line with our gross contributions. Anyone was free to question that at the time, but chose not to. Hey ho.

Regardless of whether it was gross or net, the increase in the NHS budget since then is larger than either the gross or the net amount, so the point about finding the NHS by at least than amount has been met. Can you disprove the rationale? I don't think so.

Maybe we can call it the 'Not unreasonable statement on the side of the bus' from now on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqtb6XBBBRc

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

The rebate technically happened the year after the payment, so should be discounted based on the credit quality of the EU.

not after the first year.

Somebody also needs to work out the other payments that we received from them.

or we could acknowledge that it was a genius move

morstar

The suggestion this “should have been debated at the time” surely proves this is just trolling.

For somebody who complains the thread has nothing new to say, it’s a remarkable tactic.

briantrumpet

morstar said:

The suggestion this “should have been debated at the time” surely proves this is just trolling.

For somebody who complains the thread has nothing new to say, it’s a remarkable tactic.

It's also in the wrong thread.

rjsterry

I guess if you are not getting traction in the original thread and desperately need the replies 🤷🏻‍♂️

briantrumpet

It's the danger when some Tories think that governing consists mainly of winding up the libs rather than coming up with sensible policies and enacting them vaguely competently.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

It's the danger when some Tories think that governing consists mainly of winding up the libs rather than coming up with sensible policies and enacting them vaguely competently.

Well I'm not governing so not sure what your point is.

This does however seem to be a remarkably sensitive subject for some centre lefties given its all in the past now.

pangolin

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

Been taking selfies?

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

My thoughts are that the half of the writing on the bus that was not a lie was childishly simplistic.

But as that was not the context in which you brought the bus up in this thread, it is entirely irrelevant. Bring it back in the Brexit thread if you like.

pangolin

Good to see Stevo's last two replies are variations on the playground "no you!", hopefully this round of trolling is reaching it's natural end.

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

Good to see Stevo's last two replies are variations on the playground "no you!", hopefully this round of trolling is reaching it's natural end.

If you get back under your bridge for a bit I'm sure it'll all settle down.

rick_chasey

Glad the parallels between the two are being made.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

My thoughts are that the half of the writing on the bus that was not a lie was childishly simplistic.

But as that was not the context in which you brought the bus up in this thread, it is entirely irrelevant. Bring it back in the Brexit thread if you like.

The NHS budget increase is very relevant as it is what flows from the savings obtained from not contributing to the EU. It even said it on the side of the bus. I can see why you're reluctant to address the point however.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

My thoughts are that the half of the writing on the bus that was not a lie was childishly simplistic.

But as that was not the context in which you brought the bus up in this thread, it is entirely irrelevant. Bring it back in the Brexit thread if you like.

The NHS budget increase is very relevant as it is what flows from the savings obtained from not contributing to the EU. It even said it on the side of the bus. I can see why you're reluctant to address the point however.

Take it to the relevant thread if you want to discuss Brexit for ever. You objected to the lie being called a lie and that's still a lie.

rjsterry

Stevo, you are misunderstanding both figures. We have continued to contribute since we voted to leave. It wasn't an instant saving of £X. I believe it's another £30-35bn we have yet to pay. The increases in NHS funding are just part of the ongoing pattern to keep up with demand and inflation that long precedes Brexit.




So if we haven't actually received those savings yet and the spending has gone up anyway, the two things are unconnected.

As they always were.

pinno

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

So you are saying that's it was okay to print bollox on the side of a bus because the NHS is getting more money than what was pledged by leaving the EU.

...even though the lie was probably critical to the Brexit vote and we are no longer in the EU.

So by that logic - the logic which is that the wonderful Tories have given the NHS more than what was printed on the side of a bus, have you calculated:
1. The difference in the growth in the economy between being in the EU or out with the EU
2. The economic cost of leaving the EU
3. What budget the government could have given the NHS as an EU state
4. The difference ^
5. What the government could offer workers who are striking (obviously because any offers are based on economic forecast) if we were still in the EU
6. The value of CAP payments
7. The loss to key services of essential migrant workers
8. The full value of rebates
9. The value of EU Urban and Rural development/environmental funding to our economy and to communities?

No, I expect you haven't (and I haven't either) but using the binary: 'is the NHS getting more than the £350m per week promised by leaving the EU?' is utter bollox because that is separate to the lie and quite possibly, the govt. could have given the NHS more had our economic forecast been better as an EU member state.

I tell my daughters that I am taking them to Alton Towers.
They look forward to it for months.
We can't afford to go to Alton Towers so we don't go.
But it's okay, I took them to the local park and I bought them a lollipop. I dunno why they are unhappy, there's rides at the park and you can't get that sort of lollipop at Alton Towers.

surrey_commuter

pinno said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

So you are saying that's it was okay to print bollox on the side of a bus because the NHS is getting more money than what was pledged by leaving the EU.

...even though the lie was probably critical to the Brexit vote and we are no longer in the EU.

So by that logic - the logic which is that the wonderful Tories have given the NHS more than what was printed on the side of a bus, have you calculated:
1. The difference in the growth in the economy between being in the EU or out with the EU
2. The economic cost of leaving the EU
3. What budget the government could have given the NHS as an EU state
4. The difference ^
5. What the government could offer workers who are striking (obviously because any offers are based on economic forecast) if we were still in the EU
6. The value of CAP payments
7. The loss to key services of essential migrant workers
8. The full value of rebates
9. The value of EU Urban and Rural development/environmental funding to our economy and to communities?

No, I expect you haven't (and I haven't either) but using the binary: 'is the NHS getting more than the £350m per week promised by leaving the EU?' is utter bollox because that is separate to the lie and quite possibly, the govt. could have given the NHS more had our economic forecast been better as an EU member state.

I tell my daughters that I am taking them to Alton Towers.
They look forward to it for months.
We can't afford to go to Alton Towers so we don't go.
But it's okay, I took them to the local park and I bought them a lollipop. I dunno why they are unhappy, there's rides at the park and you can't get that sort of lollipop at Alton Towers.

would you mind asking your daughters why they believed you as for as long as they can remember you have over promised and under delivered and yet they keep giving you the nod to be in charge of organising family days out.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

This was not a gross/net confusion, it was just a big fat lie. HTH and surprised there is anyone so active on the Brexit thread who feels they can state they were not aware of this.

Not a case of confusion, I just wasn't stated on the side the bus - it would have looked a bit odd if they had. As I said above, saying that our contribution is £350m per week is technically correct provided that net was not mentioned - which it wasn't.

Also as mentioned above, the increase in NHS budget exceeds either the gross or the net amounts, so in term of delivering the NHS funding promise it was absolutely spot on.

Hence the reasonable statement in the side of the bus

Stopped reading again?

kingstongraham said:

It was not in line with our gross contributions. It was vaguely in line with the pre-rebate calculation of our gross contribution, which makes it meaningless as it did not refer to the amount we send to the EU in any way.

Maybe you have. See the stats I posted upthread.

However what are your thoughts on the increase in the NHS budget exceeding both the net and gross amounts?

My thoughts are that the half of the writing on the bus that was not a lie was childishly simplistic.

But as that was not the context in which you brought the bus up in this thread, it is entirely irrelevant. Bring it back in the Brexit thread if you like.

The NHS budget increase is very relevant as it is what flows from the savings obtained from not contributing to the EU. It even said it on the side of the bus. I can see why you're reluctant to address the point however.

Take it to the relevant thread if you want to discuss Brexit for ever. You objected to the lie being called a lie and that's still a lie.

I've explained why it isn't. Sorry if that doesn't fit with your narrative, but there you go.