A bonailie, Nicola

Pross

Don’t forget all the other things the Government were going to be able to do with the money they weren’t going to be paying to the EU. It was going to replace all the EU funded schemes, cover farmers for their lost subsidies etc. It never stacked up that it could go to the NHS irrespective of whether you include the rebate.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

For someone who doesn't care about Brexit, Stevo, you don't half wang on about it ad f***ing nauseam.

I've learned about banging on ad nauseam from people like you RJS.

I thought it would be fun to point this out and look what happened. Given it all I'm the past, it seems to be an emotive point for a few people...

Just disappointed. Was hoping for some new material.

pinno

Pross said:

Don’t forget all the other things the Government were going to be able to do with the money they weren’t going to be paying to the EU. It was going to replace all the EU funded schemes, cover farmers for their lost subsidies etc. It never stacked up that it could go to the NHS irrespective of whether you include the rebate.

That was mentioned in the article I posted a link to.

First.Aspect

Part of the reason that Scottish independence has such traction is the perception that the English are only concerned with English issues.

Thank you for allowing your anglocentric navel gazing to illustrate the point.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

Part of the reason that Scottish independence has such traction is the perception that the English are only concerned with English issues.

Thank you for allowing your anglocentric navel gazing to illustrate the point.

Absolutely fair.

Not exaggerating very much when I say this is my general attitude to Scottish problems:

pinno

First.Aspect said:

Part of the reason that Scottish independence has such traction is the perception that the English are only concerned with English issues.

Thank you for allowing your anglocentric navel gazing to illustrate the point.

I don't think there's any people in here that think that the SNP is a credible party able to lead Scotland as an independent state, so what's left to discuss?

We've covered infighting, slower economic growth in Scotland under SNP rule, candidates imploding etc.

...and Brexit is intrinsic.

Last nights Reporting Scotland journo had stated that despite the majority of Scotland not voting to leave and despite Scots resenting not being in the EU, "...the dial has not turned many points towards the SNP...".

Besides, up popped an opportunity to poke a hole in Tory fan boi's bollox and that's far more important.

First.Aspect

Scotland is about 10% of the UK economy, right?

The SNP is strangling economic growth significantly, because who wants to move to a high tax low service economy, and who wants to invest in an economy that might shrink by 10-20% if the ruling party get their sole wish?

Does that not affect the rest of the UK in some way? I mean, if you are talking about the aspiration of a northern powerhouse, would it not be better to have an economically healthy central belt of Scotland as well as London to trade with?

Jezyboy

First.Aspect said:

Part of the reason that Scottish independence has such traction is the perception that the English are only concerned with English issues.

Thank you for allowing your anglocentric navel gazing to illustrate the point.

I guess my assumption would be that the problems are largely pretty similar.

Brexit, aging population, low growth and low productivity... Westminster's focus on London hurts basically everywhere aside from the city and the home counties.

Scotland may have a few unique bits, lots more relatively sparsely populated bits, and a notoriously bad drug problem in Glasgow.

I don't think having two governments pulling in different ideological directions works well. But you can't turn back the creation of Scottish parliament, so I'm not sure how that could ever be fixed.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

Scotland is about 10% of the UK economy, right?

The SNP is strangling economic growth significantly, because who wants to move to a high tax low service economy, and who wants to invest in an economy that might shrink by 10-20% if the ruling party get their sole wish?

Does that not affect the rest of the UK in some way? I mean, if you are talking about the aspiration of a northern powerhouse, would it not be better to have an economically healthy central belt of Scotland as well as London to trade with?

Sure, prosperity breeds prosperity. Size of Scotland is roughly the same as Yorkshire or the West Midlands. I care about the same as Scotland as I do for the West Midlands.

In that light, you do feel Scotland is *overrepresented* in Westminster.

I'm not gonna pretend that I care about Scotland; not that that is an especially good way to look at things, but it is honest.

First.Aspect

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Pross

First.Aspect said:

Scotland is about 10% of the UK economy, right?

The SNP is strangling economic growth significantly, because who wants to move to a high tax low service economy, and who wants to invest in an economy that might shrink by 10-20% if the ruling party get their sole wish?

Does that not affect the rest of the UK in some way? I mean, if you are talking about the aspiration of a northern powerhouse, would it not be better to have an economically healthy central belt of Scotland as well as London to trade with?

As admitted above, Rick's version of the UK is Central London and the rail corridor from Cambridge to Central London. In that context it is far easier to understand many of his views on life.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'm very upset by my virgin media bill of £100 per month, even though I have a discount of £50 from that.

£100 is an outrageous amount, why am I paying that much????

If your Virgin bill is £70 discounted from an official £100, but they throw in a free phone "worth" £20 a month. Are you paying £50, £70 or £100 a month? If you actually pay £100, but get an IOU for next year worth £30, does that mean you have or haven't paid £100?

It's not.

To be fair, my bill says it's £136, and I have three different discounts adding up to £56, so I send them £80.

It would be weird if I were to get annoyed about my bill saying that they were charging me £136.

rick_chasey

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'm very upset by my virgin media bill of £100 per month, even though I have a discount of £50 from that.

£100 is an outrageous amount, why am I paying that much????

If your Virgin bill is £70 discounted from an official £100, but they throw in a free phone "worth" £20 a month. Are you paying £50, £70 or £100 a month? If you actually pay £100, but get an IOU for next year worth £30, does that mean you have or haven't paid £100?

I propose that we all cancel our subscriptions and leave Virgin, but do not worry as despite no longer being a customer our access to Virgin's services will be the same or better than before.

briantrumpet

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

"Roughly".

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'm very upset by my virgin media bill of £100 per month, even though I have a discount of £50 from that.

£100 is an outrageous amount, why am I paying that much????

If your Virgin bill is £70 discounted from an official £100, but they throw in a free phone "worth" £20 a month. Are you paying £50, £70 or £100 a month? If you actually pay £100, but get an IOU for next year worth £30, does that mean you have or haven't paid £100?

It's not.

It's not what?

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

Sure, scots are a little richer than yorkshire folk.

You get what I mean. UK is a country of 70 odd million and 5 and a half of them are in Scotland.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'm very upset by my virgin media bill of £100 per month, even though I have a discount of £50 from that.

£100 is an outrageous amount, why am I paying that much????

If your Virgin bill is £70 discounted from an official £100, but they throw in a free phone "worth" £20 a month. Are you paying £50, £70 or £100 a month? If you actually pay £100, but get an IOU for next year worth £30, does that mean you have or haven't paid £100?

It's not.

It's not what?

It's not that complicated.

In pursuit of accuracy, my bill says it's £136, and I have three different discounts adding up to £56, so I send them £80.

It would be weird if I were to get annoyed about my bill saying that they were charging me £136.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

Sure, scots are a little richer than yorkshire folk.

You get what I mean. UK is a country of 70 odd million and 5 and a half of them are in Scotland.

Sure. So it you want a more prosperous country, surely making more parts of it prosperous is good, right?

Scotland does not, I have to tell you, feel prosperous.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

Sure, scots are a little richer than yorkshire folk.

You get what I mean. UK is a country of 70 odd million and 5 and a half of them are in Scotland.

Sure. So it you want a more prosperous country, surely making more parts of it prosperous is good, right?

Scotland does not, I have to tell you, feel prosperous.

But Scotland is 7% of the total or £150bn.
UK is £2trn and a good rate of growth would be 3% or £60bn

For the UK to feel the impact Scotland would need double digit growth. Economically it would be far better to wave goodbye and keep the annual subsidy.

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

Sure, scots are a little richer than yorkshire folk.

You get what I mean. UK is a country of 70 odd million and 5 and a half of them are in Scotland.

Sure. So it you want a more prosperous country, surely making more parts of it prosperous is good, right?

Scotland does not, I have to tell you, feel prosperous.

But Scotland is 7% of the total or £150bn.
UK is £2trn and a good rate of growth would be 3% or £60bn

For the UK to feel the impact Scotland would need double digit growth. Economically it would be far better to wave goodbye and keep the annual subsidy.

How does that reasoning apply to other regions?

Interestingly Norther Ireland receives an even higher Barnett payment per head than Scotland. And all of Wales, Scotland and NI receive more than England.

It's a snafu if you ask me.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

But size do you mean of the economy or geographically. Because both are wrong.

Economy. They're roughly the same aren't they? Scotland is what, 160BN GDP, Yokrshire is what, 140BN?

Same population roughly too.

Well if a 14% difference in GDP is insignificant, I don't know why I've been so worried about independence for all of these years.

Sure, scots are a little richer than yorkshire folk.

You get what I mean. UK is a country of 70 odd million and 5 and a half of them are in Scotland.

Sure. So it you want a more prosperous country, surely making more parts of it prosperous is good, right?

Scotland does not, I have to tell you, feel prosperous.

But Scotland is 7% of the total or £150bn.
UK is £2trn and a good rate of growth would be 3% or £60bn

For the UK to feel the impact Scotland would need double digit growth. Economically it would be far better to wave goodbye and keep the annual subsidy.

How does that reasoning apply to other regions?

Interestingly Norther Ireland receives an even higher Barnett payment per head than Scotland. And all of Wales, Scotland and NI receive more than England.

It's a snafu if you ask me.

I find it bizarre that it is the Brexit debate with people reversing their positions.

From a purely economics point of view England should leave the UK and rejoining the EU. The look on everybody elses faces would be awesome from a comedy point of view.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I'm very upset by my virgin media bill of £100 per month, even though I have a discount of £50 from that.

£100 is an outrageous amount, why am I paying that much????

If your Virgin bill is £70 discounted from an official £100, but they throw in a free phone "worth" £20 a month. Are you paying £50, £70 or £100 a month? If you actually pay £100, but get an IOU for next year worth £30, does that mean you have or haven't paid £100?

It's not.

It's not what?

It's not that complicated.

In pursuit of accuracy, my bill says it's £136, and I have three different discounts adding up to £56, so I send them £80.

It would be weird if I were to get annoyed about my bill saying that they were charging me £136.

That's no fun.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

For the UK to feel the impact Scotland would need double digit growth. Economically it would be far better to wave goodbye and keep the annual subsidy.

Isn't this part of the issue at stake, Scottish independence is not primarily one thing, there is the economic argument and the philosophical debate around Union, and many other things in between.

For most Britain's that take an interest in this, I suspect that cultural identity is the key factor. I feel 'British' rather than 'English'. Personally I want to keep the Union across all four nations as there is an intrinsic feeling of British identity on my part, but I respect the right of other countries to campaign for independence and would have no issue with another Scottish referendum.

That identity on my part also feeds into wanting prosperity across regions and countries. For all the Brex*hit delusions of what defines "Patriotism", surely a true test on any level, is a desire for inclusion, welfare, economic and social prosperity of your fellow citizens. Or am I missing something?

surrey_commuter

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

For the UK to feel the impact Scotland would need double digit growth. Economically it would be far better to wave goodbye and keep the annual subsidy.

Isn't this part of the issue at stake, Scottish independence is not primarily one thing, there is the economic argument and the philosophical debate around Union, and many other things in between.

For most Britain's that take an interest in this, I suspect that cultural identity is the key factor. I feel 'British' rather than 'English'. Personally I want to keep the Union across all four nations as there is an intrinsic feeling of British identity on my part, but I respect the right of other countries to campaign for independence and would have no issue with another Scottish referendum.

That identity on my part also feeds into wanting prosperity across regions and countries. For all the Brex*hit delusions of what defines "Patriotism", surely a true test on any level, is a desire for inclusion, welfare, economic and social prosperity of your fellow citizens. Or am I missing something?

Not picking a fight but why would you not want all of those things for all other countries?

rick_chasey

For the same reason I don't want Brexit I don't want independence, but I do think in the context of the UK the Scots have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Same number of you as Yorkshire folk. Relax.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

For the same reason I don't want Brexit I don't want independence, but I do think in the context of the UK the Scots have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Same number of you as Yorkshire folk. Relax.

I may not have learned much from Brexit but I have learned that there are a lot of people who place far more value on sovereignty than I do

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

For the same reason I don't want Brexit I don't want independence, but I do think in the context of the UK the Scots have an over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Same number of you as Yorkshire folk. Relax.

And much the same over-inflated sense of importance...


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