A bonailie, Nicola

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Really saying something that Russia is going through a period of growth while being hit by extreme sanctions.

As many brexiter will point out, growth is all relative.

A fair point but I'd still expect it to be static at best.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Really saying something that Russia is going through a period of growth while being hit by extreme sanctions.

As many brexiter will point out, growth is all relative.

A fair point but I'd still expect it to be static at best.

Yeah. Considering it’s basically a petrostate it did badly

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I don't have any in depth knowledge of the SNP, but I assume that part of the problem was, being a single issue party, the SNP lacked he requisite broad range of public policy knowledge and experience to actually govern Scotland successfully? Is this too simplistic a view?

I know there has been lots of praise for Sturgeon, particularly in the English media, but I have to admit, I always found her quite arrogant and dismissive of any viewpoint that didn't tally with her own.

Nope, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. To actually move the needle on independence, they need to persuade people who aren't already persuaded. And to do that, they would need to demonstrate what they could do with devolved powers, and at least out perform the rest of the non-London UK.

Instead, what they did was bleat about what they couldn't do because of Westminster, repeat ad nauseam how great the promised land will be, and bang their fists.

In the meantime, earnings here have lagged further behind the rest of the UK, as has economic growth because the constant indyref2 rhetoric has stifled investment.

I predict "yes" will sink to 40% or below and stay there, at least for the duration of a Labour UK governmental cycle. Not quite low enough to dismiss, not quite high enough to support any credible argument for a second referendum. At those levels, (or below) the SNP will tend to be in coalition with a UK wide party and all the talk about "mandate" will evaporate.

The irony of shortfall liking this comment when you could just swap out Indyref for Brexit and Westminster for Brussels and you get the same idea.

Couldn't agree more. And the point has been made. However, until last week making that point had you called anti Scottish.

The in fighting has already started. One of the clapping seals who is angling to be leader has said she's against the gender reform bill. Interesting how she's only just mentioning it now.

And in that respect, Scotland seems to have dodged the bullet: maybe, like the rest of Europe can see the basket case that is Brexit UK, Scottish voters can appreciate that being part of a bigger union with your nearest neighbours, with flaws, gripes and all, is better than imagining that you can go it alone in a big scary world.

Slightly different for a country whose GDP is over 11 times less than that of England.
https://statista.com/statistics/1003902/uk-gdp-by-country-2018/

And yet, despite that, we're still relatively small fry in a world dominated by the US, China, and the EU, as Truss implied yesterday.

The principle is the same: you don't help your economy by breaking links with your nearest, bigger neighbours.

IIRC we are the 6th largest economy on the planet. The only near neighbour that is larger is Germany. Although not sure what you mean by breaking links as we're still travelling there, trading with them, cooperating with them on important stuff like defence (although Germany probably isn't a good example in that case...)

So is trade with the EU going just as well as before Brexit? All going swimmingly?

https://twitter.com/RichardGCorbett/status/1627215993364705283

IIRC, the UK was the 5th largest economy before Brexit.

That's not the point though is it - this is about Scotland which is much smaller and heavily dependent on the the UK for trade and financially. It doesn't even have its own currency.

BTW do you ever miss an opportunity to moan about Brexit? There's a thread for that sort of thing that needs some more activity.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I don't have any in depth knowledge of the SNP, but I assume that part of the problem was, being a single issue party, the SNP lacked he requisite broad range of public policy knowledge and experience to actually govern Scotland successfully? Is this too simplistic a view?

I know there has been lots of praise for Sturgeon, particularly in the English media, but I have to admit, I always found her quite arrogant and dismissive of any viewpoint that didn't tally with her own.

Nope, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. To actually move the needle on independence, they need to persuade people who aren't already persuaded. And to do that, they would need to demonstrate what they could do with devolved powers, and at least out perform the rest of the non-London UK.

Instead, what they did was bleat about what they couldn't do because of Westminster, repeat ad nauseam how great the promised land will be, and bang their fists.

In the meantime, earnings here have lagged further behind the rest of the UK, as has economic growth because the constant indyref2 rhetoric has stifled investment.

I predict "yes" will sink to 40% or below and stay there, at least for the duration of a Labour UK governmental cycle. Not quite low enough to dismiss, not quite high enough to support any credible argument for a second referendum. At those levels, (or below) the SNP will tend to be in coalition with a UK wide party and all the talk about "mandate" will evaporate.

The irony of shortfall liking this comment when you could just swap out Indyref for Brexit and Westminster for Brussels and you get the same idea.

Couldn't agree more. And the point has been made. However, until last week making that point had you called anti Scottish.

The in fighting has already started. One of the clapping seals who is angling to be leader has said she's against the gender reform bill. Interesting how she's only just mentioning it now.

And in that respect, Scotland seems to have dodged the bullet: maybe, like the rest of Europe can see the basket case that is Brexit UK, Scottish voters can appreciate that being part of a bigger union with your nearest neighbours, with flaws, gripes and all, is better than imagining that you can go it alone in a big scary world.

Slightly different for a country whose GDP is over 11 times less than that of England.
https://statista.com/statistics/1003902/uk-gdp-by-country-2018/

And yet, despite that, we're still relatively small fry in a world dominated by the US, China, and the EU, as Truss implied yesterday.

The principle is the same: you don't help your economy by breaking links with your nearest, bigger neighbours.

IIRC we are the 6th largest economy on the planet. The only near neighbour that is larger is Germany. Although not sure what you mean by breaking links as we're still travelling there, trading with them, cooperating with them on important stuff like defence (although Germany probably isn't a good example in that case...)

So is trade with the EU going just as well as before Brexit? All going swimmingly?

https://twitter.com/RichardGCorbett/status/1627215993364705283

IIRC, the UK was the 5th largest economy before Brexit.

That's not the point though is it - this is about Scotland which is much smaller and heavily dependent on the the UK for trade and financially. It doesn't even have its own currency.

BTW do you ever miss an opportunity to moan about Brexit? There's a thread for that sort of thing that needs some more activity.

Probably not, as I think it is as monumentally stupid as Scotland thinking it would be successful whilst partially cutting itself off from the rest of the UK. That's the comparison that's being made, so it's relevant here, given the fact that Scottish people can see what a f**k-up Brexit has been for the UK.

If Gove going off to some secretive 'Let's admit that Brexit isn't working' weekend with the likes of David Lammy hasn't convinced you that the unicorns are as dead as a Norwegian Blue parrot, then I can't help you.

In the meantime, I'll be watching the needle edging back towards pragmatism about relations with the EU.

First.Aspect

Rational arguments such as it would be 5 times worse than Brexit even if you did get back into the EU, have thus far been unpersuasive.

And just like Brexit the demographics least able to tolerate the economic shock are the most likely to vote for it.

rjsterry

focuszing723 said:

See that was annoys me about planning permission on Green belt. It can be rejected multiple times, then suddenly it goes through.

How long is enough time to try again?

You realise each application has to be for a different proposal? So this is not anything like planning applications.

focuszing723

rjsterry said:

focuszing723 said:

See that was annoys me about planning permission on Green belt. It can be rejected multiple times, then suddenly it goes through.

How long is enough time to try again?

You realise each application has to be for a different proposal? So this is not anything like planning applications.

What, you mean a slight tweak for the same intention to build on the same land?

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I don't have any in depth knowledge of the SNP, but I assume that part of the problem was, being a single issue party, the SNP lacked he requisite broad range of public policy knowledge and experience to actually govern Scotland successfully? Is this too simplistic a view?

I know there has been lots of praise for Sturgeon, particularly in the English media, but I have to admit, I always found her quite arrogant and dismissive of any viewpoint that didn't tally with her own.

Nope, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. To actually move the needle on independence, they need to persuade people who aren't already persuaded. And to do that, they would need to demonstrate what they could do with devolved powers, and at least out perform the rest of the non-London UK.

Instead, what they did was bleat about what they couldn't do because of Westminster, repeat ad nauseam how great the promised land will be, and bang their fists.

In the meantime, earnings here have lagged further behind the rest of the UK, as has economic growth because the constant indyref2 rhetoric has stifled investment.

I predict "yes" will sink to 40% or below and stay there, at least for the duration of a Labour UK governmental cycle. Not quite low enough to dismiss, not quite high enough to support any credible argument for a second referendum. At those levels, (or below) the SNP will tend to be in coalition with a UK wide party and all the talk about "mandate" will evaporate.

The irony of shortfall liking this comment when you could just swap out Indyref for Brexit and Westminster for Brussels and you get the same idea.

Couldn't agree more. And the point has been made. However, until last week making that point had you called anti Scottish.

The in fighting has already started. One of the clapping seals who is angling to be leader has said she's against the gender reform bill. Interesting how she's only just mentioning it now.

And in that respect, Scotland seems to have dodged the bullet: maybe, like the rest of Europe can see the basket case that is Brexit UK, Scottish voters can appreciate that being part of a bigger union with your nearest neighbours, with flaws, gripes and all, is better than imagining that you can go it alone in a big scary world.

Slightly different for a country whose GDP is over 11 times less than that of England.
https://statista.com/statistics/1003902/uk-gdp-by-country-2018/

And yet, despite that, we're still relatively small fry in a world dominated by the US, China, and the EU, as Truss implied yesterday.

The principle is the same: you don't help your economy by breaking links with your nearest, bigger neighbours.

IIRC we are the 6th largest economy on the planet. The only near neighbour that is larger is Germany. Although not sure what you mean by breaking links as we're still travelling there, trading with them, cooperating with them on important stuff like defence (although Germany probably isn't a good example in that case...)

So is trade with the EU going just as well as before Brexit? All going swimmingly?

https://twitter.com/RichardGCorbett/status/1627215993364705283

IIRC, the UK was the 5th largest economy before Brexit.

That's not the point though is it - this is about Scotland which is much smaller and heavily dependent on the the UK for trade and financially. It doesn't even have its own currency.

BTW do you ever miss an opportunity to moan about Brexit? There's a thread for that sort of thing that needs some more activity.

Probably not, as I think it is as monumentally stupid as Scotland thinking it would be successful whilst partially cutting itself off from the rest of the UK. That's the comparison that's being made, so it's relevant here, given the fact that Scottish people can see what a f**k-up Brexit has been for the UK.

If Gove going off to some secretive 'Let's admit that Brexit isn't working' weekend with the likes of David Lammy hasn't convinced you that the unicorns are as dead as a Norwegian Blue parrot, then I can't help you.

In the meantime, I'll be watching the needle edging back towards pragmatism about relations with the EU.

Trouble is, we've heard you say the the same stuff about Brexit so many times and it's just tedious now, so I just tune out. Let's at least keep it on topic in this thread.

First.Aspect

So, being opposed to gay marriage and being a devout Calvinist in a country where there is still sectarian violence from time to time. How do we think that's going to go down with the Smonster Nravingloony Party?

Probably fine if she's lovely about it....

Jezyboy

Kate Forbes? She seems to be having a wild day.

kingstongraham

Jezyboy said:

Kate Forbes? She seems to be having a wild day.

Her mistake was saying she would have voted against marriage equality. Should have said that it was none of a secular government's business, and her religion wouldn't come into it.

Jezyboy

I'd rather she said what she thought to be honest.

kingstongraham

Jezyboy said:

I'd rather she said what she thought to be honest.

I would rather she thought it was nothing to do with her religion.

Jezyboy

Well yea, but she does, so I think it is preferable that she is honest about it.

kingstongraham

Jezyboy said:

Well yea, but she does, so I think it is preferable that she is honest about it.

Oh yes, fair play to her for being honest about what role she thinks her religion plays in her politics.

First.Aspect

Isla Bryson is a man because a rapist can't be a woman. That's her latest.

I suspect the answer is right, but the working isn't too good.

Hopefully she's holed her campaign below the water line now, because I simply cannot believe that someone who is this much of a God botherer won't let that sway policy.

First.Aspect

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

Sounds like the arguments people on here were using to support the libdem bloke over his religious views.

skyblueamateur

I find the whole thing fascinating. As a Catholic, albeit one who thinks that the Vaticans position on numerous things is ridiculous, and wouldn’t sway how I vote, J don’t think it should disallow me if I wanted to stand for office. I can completely understand why people think that it should be a barrier though. If you substitute Catholic or Church of Scotland for Muslim and I think it would be even more partisan.

I think the fact that she is being transparent and saying what she actually thinks is a good thing though. The public can then decide.

Jezyboy

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

Sounds like the arguments people on here were using to support the libdem bloke over his religious views.

Lib dem bloke specifically said it didn't impact his votes, whereas Kate Forbes is saying she would prefer to vote in line with her religious views on homosexuality.

First.Aspect

She's a born again evangelist, right?

Always makes me wonder what someone was before, and what they'll be next.

Issue isn't so much her views, although they are a bit 19th century, rather the naivety of thinking and also the hypocrisy. She was actually in the cabinet when the gender reform bill was being debated, and while she sees it as a conscience issue to be a bit bigoted about gay marriage, this didn't extend to risking her cabinet position by saying what she thought at the time about gender recognition.

skyblueamateur

I thought she was on maternity leave so didn’t vote?

kingstongraham

Jezyboy said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

Sounds like the arguments people on here were using to support the libdem bloke over his religious views.

Lib dem bloke specifically said it didn't impact his votes, whereas Kate Forbes is saying she would prefer to vote in line with her religious views on homosexuality.

Exactly this.

webboo

Would it not be the case if they worked for any other government department I.e Police. Fire service, civil service, NHS or the like and expressed these views. They would immediately be sent on diversity training.

First.Aspect

skyblueamateur said:

I thought she was on maternity leave so didn’t vote?

Correct, but she would have had to leave the cabinet position had she dissented while the policy was being prepared. Clearly her conscience didn't extend that far.

She's had a great day.

Latest is trans women are biological males who identify as women.

Well, yes and no, Kate. It's quite complicated.

Jezyboy

Is she just trying to Speedrun falling out of the leadership contest?

First.Aspect

Well she's an evangelical Christian, so she's politely saying that we can all think what we want, but explaining what is actually right.

ddraver

kingstongraham said:

Jezyboy said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

Sounds like the arguments people on here were using to support the libdem bloke over his religious views.

Lib dem bloke specifically said it didn't impact his votes, whereas Kate Forbes is saying she would prefer to vote in line with her religious views on homosexuality.

Exactly this.

It does lead to the slightly depressing feeling that it shouldn't matter but in reality it does because the british public isn't mature enough to deal with it...

First.Aspect

ddraver said:

kingstongraham said:

Jezyboy said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

From the Guardian: "Later in the day, speaking to STV, she said that the furore had drawn out a “fascinating question at the heart of Scottish political discourse: what does liberalism mean?”"

So the most talented rising star in the SNP is arguing that it is illiberal to oppose illiberal views. And that tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant.

Is everyone following this?

Sounds like the arguments people on here were using to support the libdem bloke over his religious views.

Lib dem bloke specifically said it didn't impact his votes, whereas Kate Forbes is saying she would prefer to vote in line with her religious views on homosexuality.

Exactly this.

It does lead to the slightly depressing feeling that it shouldn't matter but in reality it does because the british public isn't mature enough to deal with it...

If someone has simplistic b&w views about complex issues, of the sort that might be summarised in picture book form for handing out on doorsteps to potential converts to Christianity, then to be honest I'm concerned about their ability to run a country.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

Well she's an evangelical Christian, so she's politely saying that we can all think what we want, but explaining what is actually right.

I thought this was an interesting take on it, especially for those who can't conceive of simultaneously thinking something is wrong - a sin - and none of the business of the state (not Forbes in this case, but anyway).

https://twitter.com/jonpayates/status/1628130329918869504?t=YrLKzvh736v3DPPIw3WiaQ&s=19