Shimano 105 Di2 Confirmed

First.Aspect

Again I think you are comparing incomparable things. F1, a Michelin star restaurant and Dura Ace. I like analogies as much as the next guy but this is a stretch.

So for context, do you really think Mercedes invest in F1 for the personal gratification of their engineers? Any more than a chef patron is just a poor artist creating stuff for the love of food?

F1 is advertising, plain and simple. As advertiskng, how is the net roughly £200m annual spend for the likes of Mercedes compared to sponsoring the Olympics, or Manchester United? And what is the comparable impact on sales? A bit less, and much, much more, I would guess.

It is probably fairly good value, unless you are embarrassingly uncompetitive like Aston Martin and a host of others before them.

ugo.santalucia

First.Aspect said:

Again I think you are comparing incomparable things. F1, a Michelin star restaurant and Dura Ace. I like analogies as much as the next guy but this is a stretch.

So for context, do you really think Mercedes invest in F1 for the personal gratification of their engineers? Any more than a chef patron is just a poor artist creating stuff for the love of food?

F1 is advertising, plain and simple. As advertiskng, how is the net roughly £200m annual spend for the likes of Mercedes compared to sponsoring the Olympics, or Manchester United? And what is the comparable impact on sales? A bit less, and much, much more, I would guess.

It is probably fairly good value, unless you are embarrassingly uncompetitive like Aston Martin and a host of others before them.

I know, it's advertising, but according to Ferrari the money never comes back in full... for comparison, Lamborghini do not invest in Formula 1 and their cars are just as prestigious and desirable.
My point is that the cost of producing Dura Ace in Japan, the cost of sponsoring teams and paying for the advertising might be recouped by selling Tiagra... if people stop buying the cheaper groupsets, Shimano won't be able to survive on the expensive ones alone.

MattFalle

pblakeney said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I just had a look at the Hand and Flowers in Marlow, owned by Tom Kerridge... unsurprisingly, they have rooms they charge £ 325-375 (£495 with meal) a night for... and that's how they can afford to run a two Michelin Star pub

Strangely the starred restaurants that I go to are stand alone without rooms and have been there for decades. Their savings must be running out by now. 🤔

collecting up those food stamps probs...

ugo.santalucia

I think we should go back to the broader point, which is that you don't necessarily make more money by only selling high end components, because the profit margin on them might not necessarily be higher. Is it better to sell 1 Dura Ace or 5 Tiagra? Only Shimano knows that... problem is if you lose a customer, then you sell 0 Dura Ace or 4 Tiagra... which one is better?

ugo.santalucia

If I understand correctly, Sensah EMpire is compatible with SRAM and Sensah Team PRO is compatible with Shimano 11... that is nice...

MattFalle

what does it say on the Sensah website?

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

what does it say on the Sensah website?

Nothing that I can understand... it's in Chinese

MattFalle

any email comms?

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

any email comms?

I read a bit from people who bought and used the stuff... it seems to be the case that Empire is a full groupset and basically works with SRAM, whereas Team PRO only comes as Shifters and is compatible with Shimano 11. Interestingly, you can have the posh version with carbon blades for 100 quid or so, the normal ones is around 60-70 quid, so roughly 2.5 times cheaper than Shimano 105 mechanical shifters

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

any email comms?

I read a bit from people who bought and used the stuff... it seems to be the case that Empire is a full groupset and basically works with SRAM, whereas Team PRO only comes as Shifters and is compatible with Shimano 11. Interestingly, you can have the posh version with carbon blades for 100 quid or so, the normal ones is around 60-70 quid, so roughly 2.5 times cheaper than Shimano 105 mechanical shifters

surely worth a punt then?

£70 is a lunchtime bottle of wine, so you're not risking much tbh

ugo.santalucia

Don't need them now, but if I do in the future, they seem better value for money than Shimano at RRP. It would be nice if UK based retailers started taking notice of these products... having to wait 3-4 weeks for a delivery from China is not ideal

MattFalle

niche in the market for you there?

ugo.santalucia

no

MattFalle

pourquoi?

you start small - say 100 pairs of shifters, 50 groupsets.

trade price to you then 15% mark up to punters - it is a business after all.

move on from there.

all you have to lose is the equiv of a night out.

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

pourquoi?

you start small - say 100 pairs of shifters, 50 groupsets.

trade price to you then 15% mark up to punters - it is a business after all.

move on from there.

all you have to lose is the equiv of a night out.

... because I have a job

webboo

Did you not contemplate becoming a pizza delivery rider to make a bit more money.

pblakeney

MattFalle said:

pourquoi?

you start small - say 100 pairs of shifters, 50 groupsets.

trade price to you then 15% mark up to punters - it is a business after all.

move on from there.

all you have to lose is the equiv of a night out.

This is exactly how Planet X started off.
Surprised they are not on it already.

ugo.santalucia

webboo said:

Did you not contemplate becoming a pizza delivery rider to make a bit more money.

I did... surprisingly, I seem to be better off now, despite inflation

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

pourquoi?

you start small - say 100 pairs of shifters, 50 groupsets.

trade price to you then 15% mark up to punters - it is a business after all.

move on from there.

all you have to lose is the equiv of a night out.

... because I have a job

and?

its just having a bunch of boxes in the garage/shed.

less work/hassle/space than the wheel stuff you did.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

From a logical perspective, electronic groupsets must have a higher margin, or I don't see the incentive for Sram and Shimano to have invested so heavily in them and seemingly begin to phase out mechanical. They are pitched as a premium product and priced as such. I think consumers expect to pay more as they have been convinced that the 'tech' costs more. As a manufacturer, I suspect that the actual cost to produce an electronic groupset is not that much higher than mechanical.

I agree, and have been saying for some time, that we are now well and truly on the road to rim brakes and mechanical being largely phased out for road bikes, particularly amongst the large bike manufacturers.

I think a big part is that road cycling is no longer seen as a sporting endeavour, which it always used to be, even for us amateur enthusiasts. It is now a 'lifestyle' pursuit and bike companies have exploited the new consumer that has large disposable income and wants the perceived latest and 'best' tech to show off. They also have no background knowledge of bikes and will buy whatever is on offer without really questioning it.

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

MattFalle

Problem is, manufacturers hsve stopped production and devrlopment of mechanical/rimmed, do if in the future they do want to revert its going to need a massive leap in R&D and complete - and very, very expensive - factory re-tooling.

None of the MFs who have discussed it this morning can see that happening.

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

ugo.santalucia

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

I don't need a new bike right now...

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

Some of us have better things to do with the 4 or 5 figure sums of money we have kicking around, than buying something no better or worse than something we already have.

There's also something as informed choice. I've owned three disc drop bar bikes and I've yet to like one of them because they all have the same problem with front end ride quality. This is engineered in to disc frames unless its been elaborately engineered out. Closest I've got is meh.

ugo.santalucia

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

Some of us have better things to do with the 4 or 5 figure sums of money we have kicking around, than buying something no better or worse than something we already have.

There's also something as informed choice. I've owned three disc drop bar bikes and I've yet to like one of them because they all have the same problem with front end ride quality. This is engineered in to disc frames unless its been elaborately engineered out. Closest I've got is meh.

Likewise, I've had three disc frames and never liked any of them... it might be the latest generation of uber expensive disc bikes are a different breed, but they have always been outside my budget

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

I don't need a new bike right now...

but if you don't stock up now ll what will happen is that prices will rise and you'll be priced out....

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

My only long term hope is that this will diminish and many will fade away once the initial excitement has worn off. Bike companies will be left with us 'dinosaurs' who want rim brakes and other components at sensible prices and will manufacture them accordingly. I appreciate this may be extremely optimistic on my part though!

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels. Groupsets is where Shimano and co. have had the edge at all levels, from entry level to top end, but that is changing too... I have seen production bikes fitted with Microshift and Sensah or another will probably be next.

so why sre you still stalling on it?

Some of us have better things to do with the 4 or 5 figure sums of money we have kicking around, than buying something no better or worse than something we already have.

There's also something as informed choice. I've owned three disc drop bar bikes and I've yet to like one of them because they all have the same problem with front end ride quality. This is engineered in to disc frames unless its been elaborately engineered out. Closest I've got is meh.

See where you're coming from re para (1) but this is Sensah/Microshift we're discussing.

MattFalle

So essentially £110 or so.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

The savvy competitive cyclists without big budgets have been looking at the far East for some time. Many of the fast guys I see at Hill Climbs races ride unbranded generic black frames, no doubt bought for a few hundred quid... the same applies to carbon wheels

Interesting. I guess this makes sense for those competing in v. specific events as well, such as a hill climb or TT where you may be constantly switching parts to try band improve the bike. Spending less and not having to worry about durability/longevity makes experimenting with cheaper parts less of a concern.