Shimano 105 Di2 Confirmed
Comments
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What is happening here chaps is that Tiagra will be the new 105. !05 will be expensive. Ultegra will be very expensive and DA will be what the halo product that only the wealthy but innumerate or sponsored riders have.
Capmpag have done this pushing chorus up close to what record used to be, and effectively rebranding record as super record. And there is a perfectly raceable and quite expensive centaur group below that.0 -
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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how soon before Tiagra is electric and/or disc only?First.Aspect said:What is happening here chaps is that Tiagra will be the new 105. !05 will be expensive. Ultegra will be very expensive and DA will be what the halo product that only the wealthy but innumerate or sponsored riders have.
Capmpag have done this pushing chorus up close to what record used to be, and effectively rebranding record as super record. And there is a perfectly raceable and quite expensive centaur group below that..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Good question.MattFalle said:
how soon before Tiagra is electric and/or disc only?First.Aspect said:What is happening here chaps is that Tiagra will be the new 105. !05 will be expensive. Ultegra will be very expensive and DA will be what the halo product that only the wealthy but innumerate or sponsored riders have.
Capmpag have done this pushing chorus up close to what record used to be, and effectively rebranding record as super record. And there is a perfectly raceable and quite expensive centaur group below that.
I am still hoping for the market to push back a bit, but increasingly forlornly.
Reality is we will be like devotees of spd-r or delta brakes, scouring ebay for the rest of time for light rim brake wheels and calipers and mechanical drive trains.
Full disclosure, I have di2 on the best bike, but it's rim brake so I'm already thinking about buying spare shifters in case I ever bin it. And I have a campag 10sp bike that keeps asking me either for higher end campag or sram red 22. Feels close to now or never.
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unforts, i don't think the market will - younger cyclist coming through will only ever have used electric/disc and will swallow the belief that YOU HAVE TO HAVE min 28mm tubeless, discs and electric and so none of this will push for, say, Red mechanical in 2032.
I think we're honestly stuffed..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
nah fam - the msnufacturers offered Dura Ace di2, the marketers punted out the potential behind Ultegra di2, the clubbies, dentists and accountants lapped it up, manufacturers gave the people what the people wanted.
and now look where the rest of us are..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
left the forum March 20230 -
Haven't that lot moved on?MattFalle said:nah fam - the msnufacturers offered Dura Ace di2, the marketers punted out the potential behind Ultegra di2, the clubbies, dentists and accountants lapped it up, manufacturers gave the people what the people wanted.
and now look where the rest of us are.
The rest of us can just say no. Well, apart from clubbies obviously.
My holiday will be interesting. Imagine cycling the Dolomites in 2022 on a steel frame, rim brakes, alloy wheels, tyres with tubes, mechanical gearing and no power meter?
I think I'll be in a club of one, however will I get up the climbs? 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
now you're just making a meal of it.....ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The bike groupset industry is odd, in that it's dominated by very few players and there has traditionally been a big barrier to entry in comparison to the overall market size. This means the tail is wagging the dog.
Is that now changing, and are we seeing the tail end of the big three's near exclusivity?
I don't know. But there are a plethora of after market options available for every part except shifters and dérailleurs.
And this is frustrating, but with the increase in the market size its not impossible that it could change.0 -
So - is Uno or whatever its called the potential way forward?.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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unfortunately not. they're currently stuck between the outdoor ping pong in London and professing wisdom about the the tour of France (sic) but no, they'll be back, sportiving (sorry, racing as they like to call sportiving) along.pblakeney said:
Haven't that lot moved on?MattFalle said:nah fam - the msnufacturers offered Dura Ace di2, the marketers punted out the potential behind Ultegra di2, the clubbies, dentists and accountants lapped it up, manufacturers gave the people what the people wanted.
and now look where the rest of us are.
The rest of us can just say no. Well, apart from clubbies obviously.
My holiday will be interesting. Imagine cycling the Dolomites in 2022 on a steel frame, rim brakes, alloy wheels, tyres with tubes, mechanical gearing and no power meter?
I think I'll be in a club of one, however will I get up the climbs? 😉
tbh, that sounds a mega way to do the Dolomites. I have an inclinkling you'll be fine.
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?left the forum March 20230 -
I am sure it will be cheaper for Shimano/Campag/SRAM to produce electronic over mechanical once initial development costs are recouped. Which they probably were 10 years ago.
So really the increased cost is just because it's what consumers are prepared to pay.
What needs to happen is for a new entrant to come in with something cheap but functional that shakes things up (probably Sensah or some other Chinese brand).0 -
I was recently charged £15 for a glass of wine that I know retails for less than £10 for a bottle. But yes, move on.ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
...The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I'd be concerned about being able to fix it or replace parts. Because I don't see it being around thst long. It is a bit mavic zap.MattFalle said:So - is Uno or whatever its called the potential way forward?
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eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda popleft the forum March 20230 -
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
0 -
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
left the forum March 20230 -
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
Yeah not sure about your analysis tbh Ugo. The owners and hed chefs of starred places I've been to (not many!) and ones that are close (a few more) seem to be able to get by okay. Anyone else in the trade is paid a pittance, star or not.MattFalle said:
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre
0 -
It's not that... the savvy business people find ways to profiteer out of the star, for instance if you have rooms, you can sell them for 300 a night and make 90% profit on them. Other restaurants are probably subsidised by large hotels... the restaurant is there to attract customers. It is also likely that after many years at the top, you learn how to make money... I am sure that the Fat Duck doesn't lose money, but how long have they been there? Other times the accolade is a trophy, a bit like other trophies... I am sure nobody makes a penny out of Formula 1, directly or indirectly, but the prestige is sometimes equally important, to guarantee longevity or to promote other businesses one might own. There might be a million reasons to want a Michelin Star, but if the reason is to improve profitability, then it's definitively not worth it.MattFalle said:
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre
Equally, to produce, market and distribute Dura Ace, it MIGHT cost more than it makes in sales, and maybe the money is made out of selling Tiagra and 105... for as long as people can afford themleft the forum March 20230 -
It's how they get by... as I said, there are other ways to monetise on the Star... the actual restaurant is normally not profitable and tends to break even. You also have to factor in the astronomical costs involved in getting to the star... when you have to pay star quality staff, but you can't charge star money yet... that can go on for a few years, when you most likely make great losses.First.Aspect said:
Yeah not sure about your analysis tbh Ugo. The owners and hed chefs of starred places I've been to (not many!) and ones that are close (a few more) seem to be able to get by okay. Anyone else in the trade is paid a pittance, star or not.MattFalle said:
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre
I've seen a lot of programs on Starred chefs and restaurants wanting to get a star and the theme is recurrent... unless they all lie, this must be the reality of that industry.left the forum March 20230 -
I just had a look at the Hand and Flowers in Marlow, owned by Tom Kerridge... unsurprisingly, they have rooms they charge £ 325-375 (£495 with meal) a night for... and that's how they can afford to run a two Michelin Star publeft the forum March 20230
-
sorry?ugo.santalucia said:
It's not that... the savvy business people find ways to profiteer out of the star, for instance if you have rooms, you can sell them for 300 a night and make 90% profit on them. Other restaurants are probably subsidised by large hotels... the restaurant is there to attract customers. It is also likely that after many years at the top, you learn how to make money... I am sure that the Fat Duck doesn't lose money, but how long have they been there? Other times the accolade is a trophy, a bit like other trophies... I am sure nobody makes a penny out of Formula 1, directly or indirectly, but the prestige is sometimes equally important, to guarantee longevity or to promote other businesses one might own. There might be a million reasons to want a Michelin Star, but if the reason is to improve profitability, then it's definitively not worth it.MattFalle said:
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre
Equally, to produce, market and distribute Dura Ace, it MIGHT cost more than it makes in sales, and maybe the money is made out of selling Tiagra and 105... for as long as people can afford them
no one makes money out of F1?
what, seriously?
Yeah, Hamilton was seen syphoning a liad of tractor diesel out the other night, Ecclestone has a second job at B&Q and Geri Halliwell married Chris Horner for his love of her singing.
#laplumedemstante.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
0 -
Obviously I mean no car manufacturer makes money out of Formula 1... of course individuals do, just like Michelin starred chefs can earn pretty good wagesMattFalle said:
sorry?ugo.santalucia said:
It's not that... the savvy business people find ways to profiteer out of the star, for instance if you have rooms, you can sell them for 300 a night and make 90% profit on them. Other restaurants are probably subsidised by large hotels... the restaurant is there to attract customers. It is also likely that after many years at the top, you learn how to make money... I am sure that the Fat Duck doesn't lose money, but how long have they been there? Other times the accolade is a trophy, a bit like other trophies... I am sure nobody makes a penny out of Formula 1, directly or indirectly, but the prestige is sometimes equally important, to guarantee longevity or to promote other businesses one might own. There might be a million reasons to want a Michelin Star, but if the reason is to improve profitability, then it's definitively not worth it.MattFalle said:
so you're saying that people work ridiculously, stupidly, obscenely hard for decades to aspire to open a restaurant that will fail?ugo.santalucia said:
Profitability, on average a Nando's branch is more profitable than a Michelin Star restaurant.First.Aspect said:
I think you are possibly confusing scalability with profitability.ugo.santalucia said:
It doesn't matter where the profit is, the point is that at the top of the chain there is no profit to be made. Premises are a lot more expensive, they have a lot more staff on much higher wages and then of course ingredients are more expensive. I suspect the number of covers they can do is lower, like for like. How long do you spend at Nando's? Maybe an hour, as opposed to 3 you spend in a Michelin star establishment.MattFalle said:
eh?ugo.santalucia said:
Low profit margin including the drinks... if you drink water, they make a loss on you. Money is typically made out of selling rooms (if they have rooms to sell), but often these restaurants are vanity projects, occasionally are there to launder money.pblakeney said:
The money is in the drinks.ugo.santalucia said:
I am not even sure if the profit margin on Dura Ace is higher than Tiagra... if you look at the restaurant trade, the profit margin of a Michelin star is much lower than that of a Nando's.pblakeney said:
I disagree.MattFalle said:
no one is going to refuse to stock anything that will sell and make them money.ugo.santalucia said:
No, but what they can do is refuse to stock it, or start stocking cheaper products from the far east. If a Sensah groupset from China cost 200 quid... I would buy it from Wiggle if it was 350, because I can afford to buy a groupset for that kind of money. If you ask me to spend 1700 quid on a groupset, then I will buy something cheaper, if they don't have anything, then I will look at China. I suppose I could look into Tiagra or even Claris, but how low do I have to go before Shimano becomes less good than a Chinese import?katani said:
You recon it is up to the "UK bike economy" if the mechanical equivalents will still be available or what the wholesale price is?ugo.santalucia said:
I would like to help the UK bike economy, but it seems they don’t want to be helped by folks with small budgetsMattFalle said:
why do you "hate to do it" though?ugo.santalucia said:
They will drive customers away… I hate to do it for many reasons, but I think I will have no choice other than buying direct from China.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:The first production bikes equipped with 105 Di2 were listed on bikeradar over the weekend. Average price for a complete bike seemed to be around £3.5k! So much for the budget option!
I was looking at that Sensah group set, or whatever it is called… it’s probably not as good, but then again, you can buy 3 copies of it, so you have spares for everything and still pay less than half the money…
Basically, they need to cater for people who aren't keen to get into debt to buy a bike... or they will lose customers.
its not the retailers you need to look at, its the people buying it that has pushed the market and development this way.
The manufacturers are providing the answers to questions that were never asked.
They won't make money if everybody buys reliable reasonably priced groupsets and stick.
But let's stick to something more related to bicycles... is Ferrari more profitable than Dacia? Is Rolls Royce making any money on their cars?
the profit margin us in the drinks
outside if Michelin, the profit margin us in drinks and things like pasta.
the dream meal for someone iwnung a mid range restaurant is for people to come in and eat pasta and get shedded on house wine with kids guzzling soda pop
The very business model of Michelin star is aimed at breaking even. If you make a profit, it's most likely because you are not as good as the other one 20 miles away... your food is lower quality, your service is substandard... the race at the top is so tight that you can't afford any slipup... whereas with a Nando's, as long as you have decent enough reviews, you'll make money, people are not expecting much.
eh?
#pommedeterre
Equally, to produce, market and distribute Dura Ace, it MIGHT cost more than it makes in sales, and maybe the money is made out of selling Tiagra and 105... for as long as people can afford them
no one makes money out of F1?
what, seriously?
Yeah, Hamilton was seen syphoning a liad of tractor diesel out the other night, Ecclestone has a second job at B&Q and Geri Halliwell married Chris Horner for his love of her singing.
#laplumedemstanteleft the forum March 20230 -
Strangely the starred restaurants that I go to are stand alone without rooms and have been there for decades. Their savings must be running out by now. 🤔ugo.santalucia said:I just had a look at the Hand and Flowers in Marlow, owned by Tom Kerridge... unsurprisingly, they have rooms they charge £ 325-375 (£495 with meal) a night for... and that's how they can afford to run a two Michelin Star pub
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
