S*** Small Races Thread - 2022

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  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,128
    Valentin Madouas took the opening stage of the Tour of Luxembourg today. He counter-attacked on the final climb after his team-mate Kevin Geniets was brought back, and soloed to the win. Alpecin and AG2R riders tried to get across and failed, but they did hold off the small bunch of fifty or so riders came in at 8 seconds down.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,661
    andyp said:

    Whilst it's not really a pro race, it is an excellent indicator of future success, so it was interesting to see that Ineos' new signing, Josh Tarling, took the opening stage of the Junior Tour of Wales this evening.

    John Richards, who founded the Gwent Junior 2 Day (now Junior Tour of Wales) back in the early 80s died a few days ago. The quality of riders that have finished on the podium of the race is a real testament to what he created.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,128
    MVDP takes the GP Wallonie, beating Girmay and Serrano in a sprint at the citadel above Namur.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,949
    andyp said:

    MVDP takes the GP Wallonie, beating Girmay and Serrano in a sprint at the citadel above Namur.

    Warming up for the worlds nicely.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Ethan Veron takes his 2nd stage win at the Tour of Slovakia to remain in yellow.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,159
    edited September 2022
    andyp said:

    MVDP takes the GP Wallonie, beating Girmay and Serrano in a sprint at the citadel above Namur.

    Teuns and Strong came 4th and 5th getting 185 points for Israel PT. They only got 60 in the whole of the Vuelta.

    Which shows that if you are a relegation zone team, the plan must be to send the C team to WT stage races, even the Vuelta or Giro, and focus on non-WT one day races (most are in France and Belgium). Which seems to undermine the point of a World Tour other than as a guaranteed Tour entry.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,128
    Possibly. Movistar sent the A team to the Vuelta and scored 844 points, which all but guaranteed their safety, so there are other strategies to pursue.

    IPT don't have a rider capable of finishing on the podium in a GT though.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    RichN95. said:

    andyp said:

    MVDP takes the GP Wallonie, beating Girmay and Serrano in a sprint at the citadel above Namur.

    Teuns and Strong came 4th and 5th getting 185 points for Israel PT. They only got 60 in the whole of the Vuelta.

    Which shows that if you are a relegation zone team, the plan must be to send the C team to WT stage races, even the Vuelta or Giro, and focus on non-WT one day races (most are in France and Belgium). Which seems to undermine the point of a World Tour other than as a guaranteed Tour entry.
    Daft isn't it
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    edited September 2022
    andyp said:

    That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? IPT have put together a team of ageing riders in decline and seem surprised that this selection policy doesn't work in the existing points system. Sylvan Adams has now threatened to sue the UCI, his time would be better served reading Moneyball.

    The issue with it is the sport struggles for sponsors as it is - Sylvan Adams could just decide not to bother and take his money elsewhere. I don't think that's constructive for the sport (although I agree that IPT are rubbish!).

    Suspect in future sponsorship contracts will include clauses that the sponsorship can be pulled if the team gets relegated (if they don't already include something about maintaining a WT licence, which you would guess they do).

    I just don't see how that's a good place to be when the sport already struggles with security of sponsorship.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,304
    Fuglsang got 345 points at the Tour de Suisse. The issue for IPT is their GC riders haven't been good enough over the season.

    The issue with the system is how much it undervalues stage performances in (particularly three week) stage races. Clarke got the same points from coming 5th in Trofeo Calvia and 3rd in Trofeo Serra di Tramuntana as he did for winning the Arenberg stage of the TDF. And he got more for coming third in the Gran Premio Miguel Indurain. It's nonsense.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,339
    The flip side of the WT stages being low points is that if you bump them up then it's really unfair on the teams that don't have invites. This isn't pure relegation/promotion - it's closer to a play-off system. It puts Pro teams in direct competition with WT teams
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  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Irelands Archie Ryan takes the 2nd stage of the tour of Slovakia for his first pro win.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,159
    Today in UCi points madness, EF get 290 points at the Coppa Sabatini despite not winning it. They only got 328 from the whole Vuelta where Uran won a stage and came 9th
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,832
    RichN95. said:

    Today in UCi points madness, EF get 290 points at the Coppa Sabatini despite not winning it. They only got 328 from the whole Vuelta where Uran won a stage and came 9th

    It's not as if they did that well: 2nd, 4th and 10th.
    No wonder teams are no longer competing for the win when packing a few into the lower ranks of a one day, top ten can bring such fruitful rewards.

    Numpties.

    Meanwhile, how many points did Ineos get for Martinez taking the win?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    blazing_saddles said:

    RichN95. said:

    Today in UCi points madness, EF get 290 points at the Coppa Sabatini despite not winning it. They only got 328 from the whole Vuelta where Uran won a stage and came 9th

    It's not as if they did that well: 2nd, 4th and 10th.
    No wonder teams are no longer competing for the win when packing a few into the lower ranks of a one day, top ten can bring such fruitful rewards.

    Numpties.

    Meanwhile, how many points did Ineos get for Martinez taking the win?
    To be honest I don’t think EF could compete for the win despite having 3 in the winning break at one time.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    blazing_saddles said:

    RichN95. said:

    Today in UCi points madness, EF get 290 points at the Coppa Sabatini despite not winning it. They only got 328 from the whole Vuelta where Uran won a stage and came 9th

    It's not as if they did that well: 2nd, 4th and 10th.
    No wonder teams are no longer competing for the win when packing a few into the lower ranks of a one day, top ten can bring such fruitful rewards.

    Numpties.

    Meanwhile, how many points did Ineos get for Martinez taking the win?
    Duplicate.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,339
    EF definitely tried to win that, Martinez was just too good today. The front five also had Guillame Martin (3rd) and Vlasov (5th)
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  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    I didn’t mean they didn’t try to win. As you say Martinez was way too good for them.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,101
    RichN95. said:


    Teuns and Strong came 4th and 5th getting 185 points for Israel PT. They only got 60 in the whole of the Vuelta.

    Pretty sure that Teuns' points won't count as he isn't yet in the top 10 of IPT points scorers and IPT's points total will be increased by only a fraction of Strong's points because he was outside of the top 10 prior to the race.

    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,304
    DeadCalm said:

    RichN95. said:


    Teuns and Strong came 4th and 5th getting 185 points for Israel PT. They only got 60 in the whole of the Vuelta.

    Pretty sure that Teuns' points won't count as he isn't yet in the top 10 of IPT points scorers and IPT's points total will be increased by only a fraction of Strong's points because he was outside of the top 10 prior to the race.

    Teuns' is only 25 points from counting already, he would be in their top ten if Strong hadn't moved straight into their 9th place this week (I think). Top 9 tomorrow would get him those points.

    But yes, each of them will only count a few points, because they will drop the points that Hagen and Einhorn have accumulated.

    I think.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    blazing_saddles said:

    RichN95. said:

    Today in UCi points madness, EF get 290 points at the Coppa Sabatini despite not winning it. They only got 328 from the whole Vuelta where Uran won a stage and came 9th

    It's not as if they did that well: 2nd, 4th and 10th.
    No wonder teams are no longer competing for the win when packing a few into the lower ranks of a one day, top ten can bring such fruitful rewards.

    Numpties.

    Meanwhile, how many points did Ineos get for Martinez taking the win?
    Sounds like the Zwift Racing League that we do: best approach we've found is just to try and get as many riders high up as possible rather than actively try and win... Probably not a good thing to compare it with!
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,914
    I suppose this relegation thing has given everyone something to talk about. Still busy taking on board everyone's points from the various threads .
    few defend it.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,339
    It's an area where there really is no good solution. Either you have a closed shop, where you can't get a WT license until a team gives one up, or you have a periodic evaluation, with licences to the best teams.
    The first prevents teams from developing to WT level, the second introduces insecurity for sponsors who are only interested in WT (Tour de france specifically)

    There isn't enough money in the sport to insulate teams from nervous sponsors and create stability for them, and there isn't enough sponsor exposure outside the TdF to keep sponsors happy at lower levels
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  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,134
    No_Ta_Doctor said:



    There isn't enough money in the sport to insulate teams from nervous sponsors and create stability for them, and there isn't enough sponsor exposure outside the TdF to keep sponsors happy at lower levels

    It might help if the sport actually helped itself; basing almost everything on one event in July is madness. It's no way to run a successful sport....it continually amazes me.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,914
    andyrac said:

    No_Ta_Doctor said:



    There isn't enough money in the sport to insulate teams from nervous sponsors and create stability for them, and there isn't enough sponsor exposure outside the TdF to keep sponsors happy at lower levels

    It might help if the sport actually helped itself; basing almost everything on one event in July is madness. It's no way to run a successful sport....it continually amazes me.
    Hard to escape from. I think Joe public does know more races now than it did. Slow process

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,797
    edited September 2022
    andyrac said:

    No_Ta_Doctor said:



    There isn't enough money in the sport to insulate teams from nervous sponsors and create stability for them, and there isn't enough sponsor exposure outside the TdF to keep sponsors happy at lower levels

    It might help if the sport actually helped itself; basing almost everything on one event in July is madness. It's no way to run a successful sport....it continually amazes me.
    Whole sport is a particularly narrow pyramid. Each race is what, 150-200 people, 15-22 teams and there's only ever one winner. It's always going to have a big discrepancy between teams.

    It's unlike pretty much every other sport like that. Each race happens in its own context with it's own anachronisms that don't translate between each other.

    I can't really think of a sport which either has so many participants for so few winners, nor so much discrepancy between each event.

    Think it needs to find its own way. I'm happy with a closed shop FWIW. I really don't need the UCI to find a narrative for the season.

    If anything it needs to lean into the diversity of the sport and how brutal it is for 90% of competitors.

    If they really want to tie some races together, they should have a Cup for 1 day races, GTs and 1 weekers.

    Points basis, based exclusively on finishing positions. But that only works if they give some f*ck off money for each one, which they don't have the budget for.
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,914
    How much money is in the broadcast revenues?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,949
    edited September 2022
    mididoctors said:

    How much money is in the broadcast revenues?

    Broadcast revenues go to the race organisers, not the teams, which is a massive part of the problem.
  • wakemalcolm
    wakemalcolm Posts: 684
    mididoctors said:

    How much money is in the broadcast revenues?

    For a lot of smaller events I believe this is a negative amount.
    ================================
    Cake is just weakness entering the body
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,914
    Dorset_Boy said:

    mididoctors said:

    How much money is in the broadcast revenues?

    Broadcast revenues go to the race organisers, not the teams, which is a massive part of the problem.
    That's kinda my point ☝️ can't the sport get some of that?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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