Cars, cars, cars...

rick_chasey

And anyway, why the focus on the 17% when we can focus on the 83%?!

Let's get those 83% using more efficient transport.

Dorset_Boy

pangolin said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Rick bitches that there aren't enough carriages on trains, yet wants another 5 added to fit all these e-bikes? how long will the platforms need to become?

Building train lines for people who want to live semi rurally so they can have space for the children isn't sustainable.

From another angle, choosing to live somewhere that necessitates a car to reach your local amenities isn't sustainable.

So you forcibly move people, force them to live somewhere they don't wish to live.
That's going to be a success.

The options for reasonably sized urban connurbations is one thing, the needs and options of small towns and rural areas is completely different. It should not be one or the other.

Dorset_Boy

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Rick bitches that there aren't enough carriages on trains, yet wants another 5 added to fit all these e-bikes? how long will the platforms need to become?

Depends how you organise the carriage, right?

There's a really good study into I think it was Dutch trains and how they were changed to accommodate substantially more bikes. It massively increased the use of trains, as people could cycle to the station, put their bike on the train, and then cycle to their destination at the other side.

Now, the Dutch have much more modern train system which allows for double decker carriages, but the principle is universal, isn't it?

(My complaints, FYI, is that the trains were once 12 carriages and are now 8, despite a reduction of only 10% of passengers at peak-time)

For the sake of argument, lets say the train can take 1000 passengers.
How many bike spaces are the dutch providing?
How many bike spaces will be required in your utopia?

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Rick bitches that there aren't enough carriages on trains, yet wants another 5 added to fit all these e-bikes? how long will the platforms need to become?

Depends how you organise the carriage, right?

There's a really good study into I think it was Dutch trains and how they were changed to accommodate substantially more bikes. It massively increased the use of trains, as people could cycle to the station, put their bike on the train, and then cycle to their destination at the other side.

Now, the Dutch have much more modern train system which allows for double decker carriages, but the principle is universal, isn't it?

(My complaints, FYI, is that the trains were once 12 carriages and are now 8, despite a reduction of only 10% of passengers at peak-time)

For the sake of argument, lets say the train can take 1000 passengers.
How many bike spaces are the dutch providing?
How many bike spaces will be required in your utopia?

I think in the study it was between 15 an 30% of passengers.

But of course, if you allow for more bike storage, more people will come ;-).

I think the tautology you are using here is "public transport is currently terrible, so using that blueprint, your idea to make public transport good won't work, because it is terrible"

pangolin

Dorset_Boy said:

pangolin said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Rick bitches that there aren't enough carriages on trains, yet wants another 5 added to fit all these e-bikes? how long will the platforms need to become?

Building train lines for people who want to live semi rurally so they can have space for the children isn't sustainable.

From another angle, choosing to live somewhere that necessitates a car to reach your local amenities isn't sustainable.

So you forcibly move people, force them to live somewhere they don't wish to live.
That's going to be a success.

The options for reasonably sized urban connurbations is one thing, the needs and options of small towns and rural areas is completely different. It should not be one or the other.

Pross

pangolin said:

I guess it is similar to Pross's ironic example in that it doesn't exist.

The point I was making was that in Rick's world how would people get to the remote locations that are often needed to build renewable energy facilities? I'm not cycling a 150 mile round trip to do a site visit and even in his public transport utopia no-one is running a bus service to a remote mountain.

rick_chasey

I'm glad you can apply the geometry question to trains, but I hope you can extend it to cars

First.Aspect

RC there mirth here comes from the absolute black and white arguments you put forward, not the arguments in favour of public transport and cycling.

And your suggestion that you don't see things through the prism of your own experience is hilarious.

Pross

There are definitely some fairly easy adaptations that can make things better and I definitely agree that the focus should be on getting as many journeys as possible by public transport and walking / cycling / scootering (with e-versions if necessary). However, I think the focus should be on making those options cheap and convenient so that they become people's preference. One thing I would start with is a large amount of secure bike parking at stations. I use to drive the 10 milish journey to a station* as it had about 10 'secure' bike lockers that regulars would leave locked with their own lock when not in use meaning if I cycled the chances were my bike wouldn't have nowhere I could safely leave it and the trains could take maybe 4 bikes (which you would struggle to get on and off as they were so full people would get left on the platform at times).

* There is a closer station about 5 miles away but the journey would be 50% more from that one, it also didn't have secure bike parking but could be reached by bus in maybe half an hour from home.

rick_chasey

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-musk-doesnt-understand-geometry.html

This is quite old and is actually about taxis, but it gets the idea across.


Edit: this is probably better:

https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe

Wheelspinner

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Rick bitches that there aren't enough carriages on trains, yet wants another 5 added to fit all these e-bikes? how long will the platforms need to become?

Depends how you organise the carriage, right?

There's a really good study into I think it was Dutch trains and how they were changed to accommodate substantially more bikes. It massively increased the use of trains, as people could cycle to the station, put their bike on the train, and then cycle to their destination at the other side.

Now, the Dutch have much more modern train system which allows for double decker carriages, but the principle is universal, isn't it?

(My complaints, FYI, is that the trains were once 12 carriages and are now 8, despite a reduction of only 10% of passengers at peak-time)

IIRC, The Netherlands is pretty flat, or Amsterdam area is at least. For comparison, Melbourne here is also pretty flat. Easy to ride around. Cycle friendly too.

Metro Area of Amsterdam is listed as (variously) 635 to 1100 square km, with population of around 2.5 million people. Density, assuming highest area, is 2270 pax/sq km.

Melbourne metro area is approximately 10,000 square km, population around 5.1 million. Density is therefore 510 pax/sq km, less than a quarter of Amsterdam's figure. Logically, people travel a lot further *on average* to do anything because the place is much more spread out physically.

Melbourne already has quite decent public transport options. Trains, trams, busses, e-scooters and e-bikes, yet loads of traffic issues still exist, presumably because the public transport options available still don't cover the requirements of a vast number of people.

Assuming you are Merlin and have a loaded wand, what is your solution to get people out of their cars and onto whatever transport mode you think will work in that geography?

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-musk-doesnt-understand-geometry.html

This is quite old and is actually about taxis, but it gets the idea across.


Edit: this is probably better:

https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe

All these arguments relate to moving people around in, to and from cities, right?

Have you got any links about if you live rurally and want to move around rurally? Just wondering if it is permitted to drive to a station and get a train in,.or if I have to use an ebike.

Dorset_Boy

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-musk-doesnt-understand-geometry.html

This is quite old and is actually about taxis, but it gets the idea across.


Edit: this is probably better:

https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe

All these arguments relate to moving people around in, to and from cities, right?

Have you got any links about if you live rurally and want to move around rurally? Just wondering if it is permitted to drive to a station and get a train in,.or if I have to use an ebike.

In Ricktopia you aren't allowed to live rurally. Period.

First.Aspect

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-musk-doesnt-understand-geometry.html

This is quite old and is actually about taxis, but it gets the idea across.


Edit: this is probably better:

https://humantransit.org/basics/the-transit-ridership-recipe

All these arguments relate to moving people around in, to and from cities, right?

Have you got any links about if you live rurally and want to move around rurally? Just wondering if it is permitted to drive to a station and get a train in,.or if I have to use an ebike.

In Ricktopia you aren't allowed to live rurally. Period.

But the suburbs were rural before people moved there and built houses. What's the difference, if you still work 20 miles away?

People should all live in cities, such as Rictopolis, surely?

Pross

Surely the better option is to make all communities more self-sufficient rather than having big employment centres such as London but Rick tends to argue against that with 'FS has to be based in London as that is where everyone in FS has their base' so people who choose to live rurally should have to suck it up but people who choose to work in London are doing so out of necessity.

Stevo_666

pinno said:

On a similar vein, I think Hyrid's - self charging ICE/electric vehicles are the way forward:
Less batteries.
Less need for an infrastructure that will have to be geographically universal from rural Sutherland to megalopoli (if the government are serious about no ICE vehicle sales after 2030).
Less demand on the national grid.

I agree
https://caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c63


Any self charging hybrid that packs 680bhp can't be all bad in my books.

pinno

rick_chasey said:

And anyway, why the focus on the 17% when we can focus on the 83%?!

Let's get those 83% using more efficient transport.

...and allow a lot of the remaining 17% to have independent means of transport.

Why isn't having a car (in whatever form) 'sustainable?
Car makers make cars, we buy them.
Cars become more and more efficient and therefore, produce less emissions.
If the 80 odd percent had access to a good, integrated public transport system, then both does not have to be mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I had better start packing boxes so I can move the 3 miles into town and leave this house to slowly fa to bits and become derelict.
...and I am going to write to Rishi and say I want £500k so that a) I can afford to move into town to a similar sized property.
We'll move 7m people (lets leave 300,000 for servicing wind farms and producing food, build 7m homes at a cost of £200k each... that's erm... christ, i've run out of fingers... oh and then schools and hospitals and transport systems and roads and care facilities need to be created/constructed and...

cont... p94 of Pinno's myopic utopian future guided by the eloquent RC, available from all good book shops from Jan 1 2023

Anyhoo, this is a distraction from the original point that was made which was comparing the cost of owning and running an EV.
Also, more importantly, are EV's from the point of design, production and use more environmentally than a standard ICE propelled vehicle?
There is insufficient dialogue regarding the actual impact of producing and running millions of EV cars.

Stevo_666

First.Aspect said:

RC there mirth here comes from the absolute black and white arguments you put forward, not the arguments in favour of public transport and cycling.

And your suggestion that you don't see things through the prism of your own experience is hilarious.

Something tells me that Rick has never lived in that thing called the countryside.

If he did, he wouldn't be posting stuff like this. Most us know a car is the only real life practical way to get around in the large majority of the UK that is 'countryside'.

First.Aspect

Pross said:

Surely the better option is to make all communities more self-sufficient rather than having big employment centres such as London but Rick tends to argue against that with 'FS has to be based in London as that is where everyone in FS has their base' so people who choose to live rurally should have to suck it up but people who choose to work in London are doing so out of necessity.

You need to have more ambition, Pross.

pinno

Meanwhile... India is building more coal fired power stations and China is running 1110 of them...
So we're pi$$ing in the ocean.

shirley_basso

I broadly agree with Rick but his arguement is confused / not well articulated.

Given there is no spaces in cities for cars - take them out of the question by removing the need for them - better PT and last mile travel.

In rural areas there is loads of space for cars so no need to restrict them would be my take on it - but also a gradual shift to improving PT and last mile travel would also help.

The problem is with just about any door to door last mile delivery service (uber / royal mail / deliveroo) the economics never seem to work. Unsure if the public hire e-scooter services anywhere in the UK currently make money.

Wheelspinner

pangolin said:

Wheelspinner said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

My vision is isn't based on my own experience. At all. I've spoken to various people and read up on this myself.

This is the future. Complaining that the public transport isn't right misses the point. The future is that it does get you there efficiently.

You lot can't see the geometrical, energy and resource challenges clearly. mass ownership private cars are *not sustainable*.

It would be ironic if we had insufficient energy supply because the people planning green energy facilities couldn't reach the sites as someone deemed private cars unsustainable.

The other irony is that it is becoming apparent that for "us" to transition to a much more energy efficient society is requiring very substantially *more* energy supply to achieve than it ever has. IoT stuff everywhere, battery powered everything, vastly increased waste production.. to do what? Buy more internet-connected fridges so you can stay home and WFH longer hours to pay for more... internet connected fridges?

There are plenty of reasons to criticise the IoT but nobody is pretending fridges with wifi are part of a more energy efficient society so not sure what you're talking about?

Oh, sensitive much? 😀 Is software dev for the IoT devices your daily gig? There are Marketing executives everywhere who'd swear on the graves of their dead grandmother that you're wrong, and the wifi fridges are *essential* to the survival of the human race.

pinno

Wheelspinner said:

pangolin said:

Wheelspinner said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

My vision is isn't based on my own experience. At all. I've spoken to various people and read up on this myself.

This is the future. Complaining that the public transport isn't right misses the point. The future is that it does get you there efficiently.

You lot can't see the geometrical, energy and resource challenges clearly. mass ownership private cars are *not sustainable*.

It would be ironic if we had insufficient energy supply because the people planning green energy facilities couldn't reach the sites as someone deemed private cars unsustainable.

The other irony is that it is becoming apparent that for "us" to transition to a much more energy efficient society is requiring very substantially *more* energy supply to achieve than it ever has. IoT stuff everywhere, battery powered everything, vastly increased waste production.. to do what? Buy more internet-connected fridges so you can stay home and WFH longer hours to pay for more... internet connected fridges?

There are plenty of reasons to criticise the IoT but nobody is pretending fridges with wifi are part of a more energy efficient society so not sure what you're talking about?

Oh, sensitive much? 😀 Is software dev for the IoT devices your daily gig? There are Marketing executives everywhere who'd swear on the graves of their dead grandmother that you're wrong, and the wifi fridges are *essential* to the survival of the human race.

Especially apt if granny was run over by a bus.

wavefront

rick_chasey said:

And anyway, why the focus on the 17% when we can focus on the 83%?!

Let's get those 83% using more efficient transport.

I said before… think beyond UK. It’s between 40-50% of people live rurally on a global level. Where little or no infrastructure exists. How do we cater for them - you can’t ignore them.

I love your ideals and aspirations, and I’m aligned with them, but you there are more holes in your thoughts than a sieve and you can’t go around ignoring those who don’t live life like you.

Wheelspinner

shirley_basso said:

I broadly agree with Rick but his arguement is confused / not well articulated.

Given there is no spaces in cities for cars - take them out of the question by removing the need for them - better PT and last mile travel.

In rural areas there is loads of space for cars so no need to restrict them would be my take on it - but also a gradual shift to improving PT and last mile travel would also help.

The problem is with just about any door to door last mile delivery service (uber / royal mail / deliveroo) the economics never seem to work. Unsure if the public hire e-scooter services anywhere in the UK currently make money.

One (of two) companies providing e-scooter services here in a trial program has already quit, citing unprofitability as the main issue I think.

pangolin

Wheelspinner said:

pangolin said:

Wheelspinner said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

My vision is isn't based on my own experience. At all. I've spoken to various people and read up on this myself.

This is the future. Complaining that the public transport isn't right misses the point. The future is that it does get you there efficiently.

You lot can't see the geometrical, energy and resource challenges clearly. mass ownership private cars are *not sustainable*.

It would be ironic if we had insufficient energy supply because the people planning green energy facilities couldn't reach the sites as someone deemed private cars unsustainable.

The other irony is that it is becoming apparent that for "us" to transition to a much more energy efficient society is requiring very substantially *more* energy supply to achieve than it ever has. IoT stuff everywhere, battery powered everything, vastly increased waste production.. to do what? Buy more internet-connected fridges so you can stay home and WFH longer hours to pay for more... internet connected fridges?

There are plenty of reasons to criticise the IoT but nobody is pretending fridges with wifi are part of a more energy efficient society so not sure what you're talking about?

Oh, sensitive much? 😀 Is software dev for the IoT devices your daily gig? There are Marketing executives everywhere who'd swear on the graves of their dead grandmother that you're wrong, and the wifi fridges are *essential* to the survival of the human race.

Haha, I have never worked with IoT. Just baffled why you bought it up?

Pross

I want to know how all these thousands of new train or bus drivers are going to get to work when they don't have cars. Also, how do we get around when there are public transport strikes? The Rail Unions are causing enough disruption today where a lot of people have their cars as an option. I dread to think what their demands would be like knowing people had no other option for getting to work.

pinno

Never mind all that - we can't get the staff to man the trains in this ere Brexshit Britain.
If we could, we would put pressure on the existing staff - stop whingeing or quit.
I have little sympathy for rail workers and even less sympathy for their employers.

Stevo_666

I'd love to know how I take my car loads of crap from the garden and the house refurb to the tip on a bus or an electric bike. Or for that matter go to the supermarket for the weekly shop given that its more than can be carried in one go. Or get junior to and from Uni in Liverpool with a terms worth of stuff. Just little stuff like that.

pangolin

I guess it can't be done