The Tokyo 2020/1 Olympics Thread *spoilers* (not the road race cycling)
Comments
-
Zola Budd's situation was specifically result of SA being excluded from international sporting competition.0
-
To add, if Kenya have 10 of the best 100 marathon runners in the world (made up numbers), I would rather they had lots of marathon spots so those athletes could compete for Kenya.
If that means dropping sports like men’s football, any golf or tennis to keep athlete numbers down, I’m all for it.0 -
This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them0 -
-
Slovenia are the real "punching above their weight" country.1
-
My issue is that it is predominantly rich countries gaming the system at the expense of poorer ones.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
You are also taking places off people who have dedicated several years to getting to the olympics
It if we want to up our medal count then converting people to Brits is probably the most cost effective way.0 -
Just goes to show that it isn't all that common.rick_chasey said:Btw I had to look up who zola budd was. She competed 35 years ago ffs
0 -
Wiggins grew up in Kilburnpblakeney said:
British father so as British as Brad, or Chris, or....surrey_commuter said:
Sky Brown is a far more recent examplepblakeney said:Remember Zola Budd?
Froome is Kenyan
Has Sky Brown ever set foot in the UK?0 -
Always makes me feel like the people who want to have this debate somehow have an undefined "British enough" litmus test that they apply.
Personally, to avoid unintended consequences of determining how British someone is by feel, or the how much are you like me test, I would be in favour or a set of objective rules accepted across the world.
Oh, wait...1 -
What is a much more pressing issue was the coverage which was the worst I’ve seen since I can remember following it properly which is Greece 2004.
I get the licensing issues screwed the bbc but beyond that what they did have they made a pig’s ear out of. Far too much talking about the sport over showing it.
Some of it can be explained away with the hosts not being there - hard to add colour when you’re not in the thick of it. But then why bother? Stick to the sport and the commentators who are there!0 -
Rich countries attract athletes.surrey_commuter said:
My issue is that it is predominantly rich countries gaming the system at the expense of poorer ones.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
You are also taking places off people who have dedicated several years to getting to the olympics
It if we want to up our medal count then converting people to Brits is probably the most cost effective way.
That’s an advantage of being rich.
What are you aiming for if you don’t want rich countries to have advantages?
I sort of don’t understand where you are coming from.
As for athletes who train and lose out. I thought the Olympics for you were about the pinnacle of sport, not some charity event
0 -
I think it’s an interesting topic and as I said, even the Eurosport commentators were discussing it.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
I agree it’s nuanced which is why Zola Budd is a useful example. Her case was clear cut 100% flag of convenience and doesn’t lead us down the road of dissecting the specific living/training regime of an individual current athlete.
I have already set out that I personally don’t care for the medals table. I hardly thinks it’s unreasonable to want athletes who are the best in the world to compete for the country that they want to. In some cases they don’t in order to get to the olympics. Nothing to do with nativism.
As SC says, this distorts entry criteria in their adopted country. Fine if they have truly adopted that nation as their home state but not so fine if only done for their own personal Olympic ambition.1 -
Their 7:30pm till 9pm programme on BBC1 was pretty much unwatchable, but the 9pm BBC2 programme was good every day. That was the opposite - just showed the action rather than chatting about it and showing about 5 seconds of sport.rick_chasey said:What is a much more pressing issue was the coverage which was the worst I’ve seen since I can remember following it properly which is Greece 2004.
I get the licensing issues screwed the bbc but beyond that what they did have they made a pig’s ear out of. Far too much talking about the sport over showing it.
Some of it can be explained away with the hosts not being there - hard to add colour when you’re not in the thick of it. But then why bother? Stick to the sport and the commentators who are there!
0 -
-
I don't get the objection.surrey_commuter said:
Wiggins grew up in Kilburn. Born in Belgium with an Australian father.pblakeney said:
British father so as British as Brad, or Chris, or....surrey_commuter said:
Sky Brown is a far more recent examplepblakeney said:Remember Zola Budd?
Froome is Kenyan. Could have competed for Kenya.
Has Sky Brown ever set foot in the UK? I don't know. Do you?
You either agree with the rules for everyone, or object to the rules for everyone.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Didn’t really watch much on the beeb but I believe they were limited to two concurrent live streams.kingstongraham said:
Their 7:30pm till 9pm programme on BBC1 was pretty much unwatchable, but the 9pm BBC2 programme was good every day. That was the opposite - just showed the action rather than chatting about it and showing about 5 seconds of sport.rick_chasey said:What is a much more pressing issue was the coverage which was the worst I’ve seen since I can remember following it properly which is Greece 2004.
I get the licensing issues screwed the bbc but beyond that what they did have they made a pig’s ear out of. Far too much talking about the sport over showing it.
Some of it can be explained away with the hosts not being there - hard to add colour when you’re not in the thick of it. But then why bother? Stick to the sport and the commentators who are there!
So if they were showing action on the red button, maybe the main shows had to sneak clips in.
But I abandoned the Beeb during the men’s road race. After hours of continual coverage with not much happening, they cut to the studio throughout the decisive climb where the race exploded.
Set the bar for what to expect really.0 -
If you wanted to mostly watch sport, not people talking about how the Brits were doing, you needed Eurosport.rick_chasey said:It wasn’t just that though - bbc breakfast Olympics did my head in too
0 -
I literally know no context about zola budd as she started competing before I was born and I am in my 30s.morstar said:
I think it’s an interesting topic and as I said, even the Eurosport commentators were discussing it.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
I agree it’s nuanced which is why Zola Budd is a useful example. Her case was clear cut 100% flag of convenience and doesn’t lead us down the road of dissecting the specific living/training regime of an individual current athlete.
I have already set out that I personally don’t care for the medals table. I hardly thinks it’s unreasonable to want athletes who are the best in the world to compete for the country that they want to. In some cases they don’t in order to get to the olympics. Nothing to do with nativism.
As SC says, this distorts entry criteria in their adopted country. Fine if they have truly adopted that nation as their home state but not so fine if only done for their own personal Olympic ambition.
Presumably it was an apartheid issue?0 -
Yeah I ditched Eurosport a while ago because of Kirby.kingstongraham said:
If you wanted to mostly watch sport, not people talking about how the Brits were doing, you needed Eurosport.rick_chasey said:It wasn’t just that though - bbc breakfast Olympics did my head in too
So I’m a vpn guy surfing the various national broadcasters for cycling for most of the year.
Basically Belgian coverage unless it’s RCS when i normally go to Aussie coverage who use the world feed who thankfully don’t use Kirby0 -
Couldn't compete internationally because of the boycott of SA due to apartheid, so she applied for British citizenship. It got rushed through in a few months just so she could go to the Olympics for GB. Then she fell over in the race. Didn't wear shoes.rick_chasey said:
I literally know no context about zola budd as she started competing before I was born and I am in my 30s.morstar said:
I think it’s an interesting topic and as I said, even the Eurosport commentators were discussing it.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
I agree it’s nuanced which is why Zola Budd is a useful example. Her case was clear cut 100% flag of convenience and doesn’t lead us down the road of dissecting the specific living/training regime of an individual current athlete.
I have already set out that I personally don’t care for the medals table. I hardly thinks it’s unreasonable to want athletes who are the best in the world to compete for the country that they want to. In some cases they don’t in order to get to the olympics. Nothing to do with nativism.
As SC says, this distorts entry criteria in their adopted country. Fine if they have truly adopted that nation as their home state but not so fine if only done for their own personal Olympic ambition.
Presumably it was an apartheid issue?0 -
And there was also the Mary Decker controversy.kingstongraham said:
Couldn't compete internationally because of the boycott of SA due to apartheid, so she applied for British citizenship. It got rushed through in a few months just so she could go to the Olympics for GB. Then she fell over in the race. Didn't wear shoes.rick_chasey said:
I literally know no context about zola budd as she started competing before I was born and I am in my 30s.morstar said:
I think it’s an interesting topic and as I said, even the Eurosport commentators were discussing it.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
I agree it’s nuanced which is why Zola Budd is a useful example. Her case was clear cut 100% flag of convenience and doesn’t lead us down the road of dissecting the specific living/training regime of an individual current athlete.
I have already set out that I personally don’t care for the medals table. I hardly thinks it’s unreasonable to want athletes who are the best in the world to compete for the country that they want to. In some cases they don’t in order to get to the olympics. Nothing to do with nativism.
As SC says, this distorts entry criteria in their adopted country. Fine if they have truly adopted that nation as their home state but not so fine if only done for their own personal Olympic ambition.
Presumably it was an apartheid issue?“You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”
Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut0 -
She was married to the Colonel who was the A-Teams nemesis.dabber said:
And there was also the Mary Decker controversy.kingstongraham said:
Couldn't compete internationally because of the boycott of SA due to apartheid, so she applied for British citizenship. It got rushed through in a few months just so she could go to the Olympics for GB. Then she fell over in the race. Didn't wear shoes.rick_chasey said:
I literally know no context about zola budd as she started competing before I was born and I am in my 30s.morstar said:
I think it’s an interesting topic and as I said, even the Eurosport commentators were discussing it.rick_chasey said:This makes no sense.
Hundreds of non us athletes train in the US and a lot of them live there, for example.
What then constitutes home?
Why make it so difficult. The rules are fairly clear and no one apart from nativists object to them
I agree it’s nuanced which is why Zola Budd is a useful example. Her case was clear cut 100% flag of convenience and doesn’t lead us down the road of dissecting the specific living/training regime of an individual current athlete.
I have already set out that I personally don’t care for the medals table. I hardly thinks it’s unreasonable to want athletes who are the best in the world to compete for the country that they want to. In some cases they don’t in order to get to the olympics. Nothing to do with nativism.
As SC says, this distorts entry criteria in their adopted country. Fine if they have truly adopted that nation as their home state but not so fine if only done for their own personal Olympic ambition.
Presumably it was an apartheid issue?
Rick, you may need to google the A-Team also.1 -
God that makes me feel very old.rick_chasey said:Btw I had to look up who zola budd was. She competed 35 years ago ffs
The story took on huge significance at the time. Right wing tabloid successfully campaigns for white SA barefoot runner to fast track uk nationality for 1984 olympics, anti-aparteid protests, drama when she collided with US WC, then dumps uk after a couple of years.
0 -
To be fair, I don’t really think it is an IOC or sport governing bodies issue.*pblakeney said:
I don't get the objection.surrey_commuter said:
Wiggins grew up in Kilburn. Born in Belgium with an Australian father.pblakeney said:
British father so as British as Brad, or Chris, or....surrey_commuter said:
Sky Brown is a far more recent examplepblakeney said:Remember Zola Budd?
Froome is Kenyan. Could have competed for Kenya.
Has Sky Brown ever set foot in the UK? I don't know. Do you?
You either agree with the rules for everyone, or object to the rules for everyone.
If somebody has a legal nationality, that is all the IOC can go by.
I guess the issue is more about the athletes doing it solely for Olympic ambition and the adoptive nations encouraging it.
When somebody changes nationality solely for sporting reasons, it is hardly in the spirit of the competition.
*Other than where athlete number limitations overly restrict participation of very strong nations.0 -
It was basically Grandstand from ca. 1990, but without a host as gifted as Des Lynham and with Eurosport's disadvantage of being locked in to a live sport they think is more popular than some other far more interesting live sport (e.g. a mixed doubles third round match in a French open warm up event, rather than the Queen stage of the Giro).rick_chasey said:What is a much more pressing issue was the coverage which was the worst I’ve seen since I can remember following it properly which is Greece 2004.
I get the licensing issues screwed the bbc but beyond that what they did have they made a pig’s ear out of. Far too much talking about the sport over showing it.
Some of it can be explained away with the hosts not being there - hard to add colour when you’re not in the thick of it. But then why bother? Stick to the sport and the commentators who are there!
The BBC has a lot of excellent sports presenters, but they ensure that only the best looking host the main shows. And, inexplicably, Dan Walker - who is a blokey nob who wants to make little funny comments and be centre stage. He would be an ideal presenter for Top Gear, but that's about it.0 -
Didn’t grandstand peter out around 15-20 years ago? I have some recollection as a kid - some athletics I think?First.Aspect said:
It was basically Grandstand from ca. 1990, but without a host as gifted as Des Lynham and with Eurosport's disadvantage of being locked in to a live sport they think is more popular than some other far more interesting live sport (e.g. a mixed doubles third round match in a French open warm up event, rather than the Queen stage of the Giro).rick_chasey said:What is a much more pressing issue was the coverage which was the worst I’ve seen since I can remember following it properly which is Greece 2004.
I get the licensing issues screwed the bbc but beyond that what they did have they made a pig’s ear out of. Far too much talking about the sport over showing it.
Some of it can be explained away with the hosts not being there - hard to add colour when you’re not in the thick of it. But then why bother? Stick to the sport and the commentators who are there!
The BBC has a lot of excellent sports presenters, but they ensure that only the best looking host the main shows. And, inexplicably, Dan Walker - who is a blokey nob who wants to make little funny comments and be centre stage. He would be an ideal presenter for Top Gear, but that's about it.0 -
The ad free stream on the Eurosport player, my normal choice, usually carries multiple language options inc ambient sound only.rick_chasey said:
Yeah I ditched Eurosport a while ago because of Kirby.kingstongraham said:
If you wanted to mostly watch sport, not people talking about how the Brits were doing, you needed Eurosport.rick_chasey said:It wasn’t just that though - bbc breakfast Olympics did my head in too
So I’m a vpn guy surfing the various national broadcasters for cycling for most of the year.
Basically Belgian coverage unless it’s RCS when i normally go to Aussie coverage who use the world feed who thankfully don’t use Kirby
I could tolerate the track commentary of Kirby whose worst excesses were getting curbed (for goodness sake!) by Jo Rowsell.
Having the £20 p.a. Eurosport deal has paid for itself times n, e.g. did not have to put up with the sketchy BBC coverages.0 -
Agreed on ES subscription.orraloon said:
The ad free stream on the Eurosport player, my normal choice, usually carries multiple language options inc ambient sound only.rick_chasey said:
Yeah I ditched Eurosport a while ago because of Kirby.kingstongraham said:
If you wanted to mostly watch sport, not people talking about how the Brits were doing, you needed Eurosport.rick_chasey said:It wasn’t just that though - bbc breakfast Olympics did my head in too
So I’m a vpn guy surfing the various national broadcasters for cycling for most of the year.
Basically Belgian coverage unless it’s RCS when i normally go to Aussie coverage who use the world feed who thankfully don’t use Kirby
I could tolerate the track commentary of Kirby whose worst excesses were getting curbed (for goodness sake!) by Jo Rowsell.
Having the £20 p.a. Eurosport deal has paid for itself times n, e.g. did not have to put up with the sketchy BBC coverages.
Saw some track cycling whilst brushing my teeth.0 -
First.Aspect said:
Always makes me feel like the people who want to have this debate somehow have an undefined "British enough" litmus test that they apply.
Personally, to avoid unintended consequences of determining how British someone is by feel, or the how much are you like me test, I would be in favour or a set of objective rules accepted across the world.
Oh, wait...
I think that's unfair. Quite clearly some nations have abused the rules to try and buy success - an example would be the Brutish Tae Kwon Do guy who competed for some central European country a while back. Fast tracking Zola Budd citizenship so she could compete for GB was another.
No it's not a huge issue and it's a consequence of having rules which do allow for the fact that nationality isn't a black and white issue. If you have rules there are normally unintended loopholes - I'd suggest allowing an oil state to pay a Kenyan runner to compete for them as has happened is exploiting a loophole but it's preferable to putting up barriers which would affect the likes of, for example, Mo Farrah, Fiona May etc.
Edit - "British" TKD guy - he may well also be brutish I don't know.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
The double edged sword of being bilingual in a language which is spoken by a nation which has a deep road cycling heritage is you know what good commentary and coverage really is.morstar said:
Agreed on ES subscription.orraloon said:
The ad free stream on the Eurosport player, my normal choice, usually carries multiple language options inc ambient sound only.rick_chasey said:
Yeah I ditched Eurosport a while ago because of Kirby.kingstongraham said:
If you wanted to mostly watch sport, not people talking about how the Brits were doing, you needed Eurosport.rick_chasey said:It wasn’t just that though - bbc breakfast Olympics did my head in too
So I’m a vpn guy surfing the various national broadcasters for cycling for most of the year.
Basically Belgian coverage unless it’s RCS when i normally go to Aussie coverage who use the world feed who thankfully don’t use Kirby
I could tolerate the track commentary of Kirby whose worst excesses were getting curbed (for goodness sake!) by Jo Rowsell.
Having the £20 p.a. Eurosport deal has paid for itself times n, e.g. did not have to put up with the sketchy BBC coverages.
Saw some track cycling whilst brushing my teeth.
You’ll spot on pro-race most bi lingual people watch the non-English feeds where possible. There’s a reason for that.0
