TDF 2021: Stage 9, Cluses > Tignes 144.9 km **Spoilers**

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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,649
    It's quite simple really, the only rider yesterday that still thought he was racing Pogacar was Carapaz. The others were all in a different race. Pogacar might as well have been 30 minutes down, they let him go.

    He had them beaten mentally days ago.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited July 2021
    jimmyjams said:



    I hope they gave Dlamini the Combativity award for the stage – they have given it to an eliminated rider in the past, albeit long ago. I think he was already dropped after 20-25 km (?), so rode the rest of the stage alone and abandoned.


    My guess is the organisers are probably a bit peed off with him for not abandoning as they couldn't move vehicles off the mountain until he'd finished. A few minutes late maybe, but he missed the time cut by 47 minutes.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    RichN95. said:

    jimmyjams said:



    I hope they gave Dlamini the Combativity award for the stage – they have given it to an eliminated rider in the past, albeit long ago. I think he was already dropped after 20-25 km (?), so rode the rest of the stage alone and abandoned.


    My guess is the organisers are probably a bit peed off with him for not abandoning as they couldn't move vehicles off the mountain until he'd finished. A few minutes late maybe, but he missed the time cut by 47 minutes.
    Yeah, it's a tough one as it makes for one of those heroic tales but ultimately these are professional cyclists and he took more than double what was already quite a generous time limit.,
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Was he in a deep sea diver's outfit?
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    TheBigBean said:

    In 2018, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.

    Edited to correct year. Important details.

    True .. they did collapse . And they lost the time dicking around waiting for reichenbach. So tactical mistakes contributed there. Stage 8 everyone was all in ..it was pog who relaxed a little on the descent
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    ddraver said:

    mididoctors said:


    You can look at Bahrain and think ...how come they all got so good all of a sudden ... But it could just be they are doing training right .

    Well, that and they also did it the old fashioned way - spent a shedload of money on better riders.

    UAE also...

    Yeah but as riders they became better ... I don't think they tanked up btw
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:

    mididoctors said:

    I know what to
    Think of pogacar's performance It's surreal .

    I've been wracking my brains to try and think of a more dominant performance in my lifetime and if we're discounting Armstrong on Hautucam and Pantani on les Deux Alpes for obvious reasons, I have to go back to Indurain on La Plagne, and even then he "only" put 2 minutes into Tonkov and Pantani, with a VAM around 100 less than Pogacar yesterday. Maybe Hinault or Mercxc or someone did something as dominant but they were a bit before my time.


    Merckx won a stage by just under 8 minutes in 1969. Conversely, in 1971 Luis Ocana won a stage nearly six minutes ahead of Van Impe and nearly nine minutes ahead of Merckx in third. (He'd started the day only 1 second of Yellow). He should have won that Tour but crashed out on a descent while over seven minutes up on GC.

    In 1986 Hinault and LeMond finished 5 minutes ahead of everyone on Alpe d'Huez. If LeMond had ridden the Alpe hard (rather than 'like a tourist') he probably could have won the stage by 10.
    Maybe this is it ... People are just relearning you can go long and fast .... Froome obviously rediscovering that over the finestra . Long rides in 2010s tended to be guys off GC winning a stage from a softish chase .... Andy schleck a exception there.. the previous decades ffloyd Landis triple mountain insanity kinda leaves the wrong impression .

    Froome stands out in the last decade as the most amazing exploit but pogs ride was something mega ... What is that guy outputting FFS ...ok in the 1990s epo era we didn't really have that many long attacks either . You can remember them . Claudio to sestriere ... Jaja to mende .. zulle to la plagne ugramov to val thorens with Rodriguez on his wheel the whole way . Virenques long attacks don't count he never really threatened on GC so ignore them .

    Pogs attack wasn't "that long" but my god ...

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    It's quite simple really, the only rider yesterday that still thought he was racing Pogacar was Carapaz. The others were all in a different race. Pogacar might as well have been 30 minutes down, they let him go.

    He had them beaten mentally days ago.

    Pretty much . I think that's a mistake thou but easy for me to say sitting watching it on TV 🙂
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    kingstongraham said:

    Was he in a deep sea diver's outfit?

    He crashed early on the stage
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    It's the way Pog looks like he is on a different planet to everyone else, can attack at will and take time whenever he wants. I don't think Froome's 2018 attack was really quite like that, although it was stunning of course - as mentioned he pulled out more time on the descents than the climbs, it turned into more or less a TT between him and Dumoulin, and the Dumoulin group messed about waiting for Reichenbach, who can't descend anyway.

    Yates 2018 gave off a slightly similar vibe to Pog now (invulnerable, can attack and take time whenever he wants) but he obviously collapsed afterwards.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,307
    bobmcstuff said:

    It's the way Pog looks like he is on a different planet to everyone else, can attack at will and take time whenever he wants. I don't think Froome's 2018 attack was really quite like that, although it was stunning of course - as mentioned he pulled out more time on the descents than the climbs, it turned into more or less a TT between him and Dumoulin, and the Dumoulin group messed about waiting for Reichenbach, who can't descend anyway.

    Yates 2018 gave off a slightly similar vibe to Pog now (invulnerable, can attack and take time whenever he wants) but he obviously collapsed afterwards.

    bobmcstuff said:

    It's the way Pog looks like he is on a different planet to everyone else, can attack at will and take time whenever he wants. I don't think Froome's 2018 attack was really quite like that, although it was stunning of course - as mentioned he pulled out more time on the descents than the climbs, it turned into more or less a TT between him and Dumoulin, and the Dumoulin group messed about waiting for Reichenbach, who can't descend anyway.

    Yates 2018 gave off a slightly similar vibe to Pog now (invulnerable, can attack and take time whenever he wants) but he obviously collapsed afterwards.

    History can be repeated.
    As unlikely as it sounds, it is still possible.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,332
    kingstongraham said:

    Was he in a deep sea diver's outfit?

    Dressed for the conditions then?
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953


    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338
    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    joe2019 said:

    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
    Especially Matt Leblanc - overweight American actor mixing it with Pantani's best efforts.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Since he are talking numbers, here's an article that turned up on Sporza.

    https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/argwaan-door-hoge-niveau-in-de-tour-gewoon-golf-van-absolute-toptalenten~1625402365045/

    Excuse the Google translation:

    Pushing the best values and still end up in the last group? It happened to Thomas De Gendt and Greg Van Avermaet in the Tour yesterday. Is the power to the youth? "The young talents have their heads against the wall and don't care," conclude our commentators.
    Thomas De Gendt was amazed yesterday. He pushed one of his better values ever and still couldn't keep up.
    Greg Van Avermaet also came to the same "hard conclusion". "I rode my better values and was in the last group. The others just ride faster."
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    So I missed all of this, including highlights (not for fun reasons either).

    From the thread I couldn’t tell you for sure who won.

    O’Connor?
    _
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,332
    Yes.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Probably didn't get enough on here for that ride because of everything going on behind, but O'connor managed his obvious issues with the cold and must have got his feeding perfect. Dropped on the descent, shaking out his hands in proper cold weather gloves, to come back and win by 5 minutes was a great ride.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited July 2021
    joe2019 said:

    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
    How many kilos lighter and less draggy are the bikes and is their weight included in the watts/kg calculation?

    Bike kit has moved on a bit in 25 years.

    You would expect 90s riders to ride faster than 70s riders even without doping.
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,307
    rick_chasey said:

    joe2019 said:

    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
    How many kilos lighter and less draggy are the bikes and is their weight included in the watts/kg calculation?

    Bike kit has moved on a bit in 25 years.

    You would expect 90s riders to ride faster than 70s riders even without doping.
    Not necessarily as they were doping in the 70s. Just not as effectively.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,598
    The new generation are probably the first one to be brought up training with loads of easily accessible numbers. They should be better than the previous one. It could help explain why there's so many good young riders.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    rick_chasey said:

    So I missed all of this, including highlights (not for fun reasons either).

    From the thread I couldn’t tell you for sure who won.

    O’Connor?

    Good stage ..really gruelling battle in bad weather
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    rick_chasey said:

    joe2019 said:

    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
    How many kilos lighter and less draggy are the bikes and is their weight included in the watts/kg calculation?

    Bike kit has moved on a bit in 25 years.

    You would expect 90s riders to ride faster than 70s riders even without doping.
    Steel bikes into the 70s where pretty much 10 kg from ww2 to 1980 .. Alu bikes started trimming off weight in the 80s but the 90s bikes where still 9kg so not as much as you would imagine ... Carbon changed everything ..late 90s to 2000s weight fell off as did body weight .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    edited July 2021
    gsk82 said:

    The new generation are probably the first one to be brought up training with loads of easily accessible numbers. They should be better than the previous one. It could help explain why there's so many good young riders.

    This ☝️

    Numbers and power are the elephant in the room ... People know what they are doing from juniors ... Juniors at our club where on power meter setups testers from BCF and are now winning the giro ... These guys in the early 20s have had there talent detected so early . Back in the day some guy may have been flogging a dead horse trying to train themselves into a champion based on not much at all . The peloton was probably full of stubborn minded dreamers ..now it's full of stubborn minded dreamers who are good .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Not sure if the screenshot will be readable or if the link will work but some discussion on historic bike weights here
    https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67195

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    edited July 2021
    mididoctors said:

    rick_chasey said:

    joe2019 said:

    phreak said:



    Pogacar's VAM on Saturday was around 1850, which given they were saying on commentary it was into a headwind is quite something.


    That's a motley crew.
    How many kilos lighter and less draggy are the bikes and is their weight included in the watts/kg calculation?

    Bike kit has moved on a bit in 25 years.

    You would expect 90s riders to ride faster than 70s riders even without doping.
    Steel bikes into the 70s where pretty much 10 kg from ww2 to 1980 .. Alu bikes started trimming off weight in the 80s but the 90s bikes where still 9kg so not as much as you would imagine ... Carbon changed everything ..late 90s to 2000s weight fell off as did body weight .
    Pantani's (aluminum) Bianchi from 1998 was 6.9kg.

    https://www.bikeradar.com/features/retro-pro-bike-marco-pantanis-1998-bianchi-mega-pro-xl/
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    kingstongraham said:

    Probably didn't get enough on here for that ride because of everything going on behind, but O'connor managed his obvious issues with the cold and must have got his feeding perfect. Dropped on the descent, shaking out his hands in proper cold weather gloves, to come back and win by 5 minutes was a great ride.

    The weather was a big factor over two stages . We may be underestimating its effect on time gaps
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338
    Pantani was 10kg lighter than Pogačar

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