TDF 2021: Stage 9, Cluses > Tignes 144.9 km **Spoilers**
Comments
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No gloom about Pogacar from me, he's incredible to watch. This has been the best opening week of the tour for years.0
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He gained around 3 minutes over 80km or so and he took a large chunk of his time back on the descent. Even if you assume a rapid pace of 40kmhr for those 80km, it would put him about 2% faster than Carapaz, Dumoulin et al after he attacked.tailwindhome said:
How much time did Froome take back on that celebrated Giro stage?phreak said:
I think that's kind of the point, as since the sport has tried to present itself as cleaner, the margins have been much smaller. For instance, Froome's ride on Ventoux raised eyebrows, yet that day he beat Quintana by 29 seconds and Contador by 1m40secs. Cancellara's demolition of the 2010 Ronde saw him beat Boonen by 1m15secs, Contador's climb on the Mortirolo in 2015 saw him gain around a minute on Landa to catch back up. These are the kind of time gaps we're now using as the benchmark for extraordinary performances, and then along comes Pogacar and puts 3 minutes into his rivals.Pross said:
Is there gloom about Pogacar? The usual insinuations about anyone who dominates (which I can understand) and a bit of disappointment that it looks like the hoped for GC battle isn't going to happen and that the race is already settled on the first weekend barring further accidents but I suspect most people found his ride very entertaining. It's certainly a step up from chasing bonus seconds on the final climb in my opinion.amrushton said:So Cav is doing well despite all the gloom about Pogacar. Sprinters abandoning or getting eliminated so looking good for him. Ineos and JV not dominating and no power trains going up the climbs. Is this not what many of us wanted? Glass at least half full.
By any reasonable measure, it's the kind of performance that people should have been talking about as one of the most dominant in the history of the sport, and yet the reaction is almost muted, as though people don't believe it but don't want to openly state it reeks so they're holding back instead.
Pogacar went over the final climbs yesterday in about 48 minutes, so he was nearly 7% faster than everyone else (as he actually lost time on the descent to the finish and in between the two climbs). Obviously a different sport, but Ben Johnson's 1988 win and Bolt's 2008 win were around 2% faster than the rest. Even cycling's own "Ben Johnson moment" with Ullrich on Arcalis saw him beat Virenque and Pantani by just over a minute, which given the speed he went up it meant he beat them by around 4.5%.
A 7% margin is absolutely huge at this level.0 -
How did he only finish 4th on the stage given his super human performance?0
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Not sure if that's a serious question, but he gave them a several minute head start and didn't need to take the risks Teuns did on the descent?TheBigBean said:How did he only finish 4th on the stage given his super human performance?
Apart from the dodgy history of his team boss there's no smoking gun about the bloke, but we have just seen the most dominant performance in the sport in an absolute age.0 -
I don't know what to
Think of pogacar's performance It's surreal ."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
His team are mediocre ..thank god ... If he had ineos he would be arriving at the base of tigre with a couple of mins to pull back on Connor not 8TheBigBean said:How did he only finish 4th on the stage given his super human performance?
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
He is so young how can he be cheating without big time help . You can look at Bahrain and think ...how come they all got so good all of a sudden ... But it could just be they are doing training right . I just can't see anyone risking a big doping scandal at this level. What are they doing that isn't getting detected? Did covid give cover for off season "tooling up ".... You can have a zillion paranoid theories ..,"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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In 2018, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.
Edited to correct year. Important details.0 -
I've been wracking my brains to try and think of a more dominant performance in my lifetime and if we're discounting Armstrong on Hautucam and Pantani on les Deux Alpes for obvious reasons, I have to go back to Indurain on La Plagne, and even then he "only" put 2 minutes into Tonkov and Pantani, with a VAM around 100 less than Pogacar yesterday. Maybe Hinault or Mercxc or someone did something as dominant but they were a bit before my time.mididoctors said:I know what to
Think of pogacar's performance It's surreal .0 -
His team did go from shambles to dominating the front of the pelaton on a mountain stage overnight today."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0
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Pogacar climbed the Col de la Colombiere in 21:55 yesterday. Dan Martin managed it 2 seconds faster in the 2018 Tour. Not much speculation of doping about that "superhuman effort" there...0
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Made even more stunning by the fact that he must have achieved these huge time gaps from a hospital bed.TheBigBean said:In 2019, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I thought riders had to ride in garb showing team sponsorship, even if occasionally hidden by rainwear. Will Quintana therefore be fined?mididoctors said:
bizarre never seen that beforePross said:
No, just bib shorts and a base layer vest.mididoctors said:Has nairo.got trade kit on underneath?
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He finished miles behind in the end - yesterday's toll?mididoctors said:Woods really needs to work on his descending
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Won the Vuelta from his hospital bed IIRCblazing_saddles said:
Made even more stunning by the fact that he must have achieved these huge time gaps from a hospital bed.TheBigBean said:In 2019, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
delete
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I hope they gave Dlamini the Combativity award for the stage – they have given it to an eliminated rider in the past, albeit long ago. I think he was already dropped after 20-25 km (?), so rode the rest of the stage alone and abandoned.RichN95. said:It's nearly seven o'clock in France and apparently Diamini, who crashed, is still out on the course trying finish the day.
Edit: He made it0 -
Yer.tailwindhome said:
Won the Vuelta from his hospital bed IIRCblazing_saddles said:
Made even more stunning by the fact that he must have achieved these huge time gaps from a hospital bed.TheBigBean said:In 2019, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.
Doctors. Say no more.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I dont understand the problem many here seem to have (and also exhibited in the thread for Friday's stage, BigBean excepted) - surely Movistar on stage 7 were simply riding against Carapaz, because they wouldn't want Mas to have two main opponents significantly ahead of him?Pross said:
Not really, Pog didn't have a huge lead at that time so they could have put him under pressure and forced him to chase then maybe Mas could have attacked him too.TheBigBean said:If everyone is clear why Ineos were riding today, is it now clear why Movistar were riding on Friday?
I don't know what was said afterwards but I imagine Kwia said something to Mas and Valverde along the lines of 'Why were you helping Pog?', and they replied something like 'It's not just the rest of us against Pog, you know'.
Maybe Movistar already have a more realistic pragmatic view of things, not a dreamer's view.
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Not so.jimmyjams said:
I dont understand the problem many here seem to have (and also exhibited in the thread for Friday's stage, BigBean excepted) - surely Movistar on stage 7 were simply riding against Carapaz, because they wouldn't want Mas to have two main opponents significantly ahead of him?Pross said:
Not really, Pog didn't have a huge lead at that time so they could have put him under pressure and forced him to chase then maybe Mas could have attacked him too.TheBigBean said:If everyone is clear why Ineos were riding today, is it now clear why Movistar were riding on Friday?
I don't know what was said afterwards but I imagine Kwia said something to Mas and Valverde along the lines of 'Why were you helping Pog?', and they replied something like 'It's not just the rest of us against Pog, you know'.
Maybe Movistar already have a more realistic pragmatic view of things, not a dreamer's view.
It was nothing to do with that.
I think it was AndyP who said that Mas was upset because he crashed in the feed zone and he felt that it was Kwiato's fault.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I suppose to play Devil's advocate you could argue that when your teams are sponsored by countries that have bad human rights records risking your reputation on being involved in sports doping is pretty minor. It's not like they have a corporate reputation and shareholders to keep happy.mididoctors said:He is so young how can he be cheating without big time help . You can look at Bahrain and think ...how come they all got so good all of a sudden ... But it could just be they are doing training right . I just can't see anyone risking a big doping scandal at this level. What are they doing that isn't getting detected? Did covid give cover for off season "tooling up ".... You can have a zillion paranoid theories ..,
Personally, I try to avoid being overly suspicious without at least some kind of evidence but can see why rides like that make people cynical. In his defence Pogacar has always been a top rider (Mohoric was a successful young rider too).0 -
I've seen ascent times for yesterday's Romme ascent, and I don't think Pogacar's time was that exceptional compared to previous.phreak said:
He gained around 3 minutes over 80km or so and he took a large chunk of his time back on the descent. Even if you assume a rapid pace of 40kmhr for those 80km, it would put him about 2% faster than Carapaz, Dumoulin et al after he attacked.tailwindhome said:
How much time did Froome take back on that celebrated Giro stage?phreak said:
I think that's kind of the point, as since the sport has tried to present itself as cleaner, the margins have been much smaller. For instance, Froome's ride on Ventoux raised eyebrows, yet that day he beat Quintana by 29 seconds and Contador by 1m40secs. Cancellara's demolition of the 2010 Ronde saw him beat Boonen by 1m15secs, Contador's climb on the Mortirolo in 2015 saw him gain around a minute on Landa to catch back up. These are the kind of time gaps we're now using as the benchmark for extraordinary performances, and then along comes Pogacar and puts 3 minutes into his rivals.Pross said:
Is there gloom about Pogacar? The usual insinuations about anyone who dominates (which I can understand) and a bit of disappointment that it looks like the hoped for GC battle isn't going to happen and that the race is already settled on the first weekend barring further accidents but I suspect most people found his ride very entertaining. It's certainly a step up from chasing bonus seconds on the final climb in my opinion.amrushton said:So Cav is doing well despite all the gloom about Pogacar. Sprinters abandoning or getting eliminated so looking good for him. Ineos and JV not dominating and no power trains going up the climbs. Is this not what many of us wanted? Glass at least half full.
By any reasonable measure, it's the kind of performance that people should have been talking about as one of the most dominant in the history of the sport, and yet the reaction is almost muted, as though people don't believe it but don't want to openly state it reeks so they're holding back instead.
Pogacar went over the final climbs yesterday in about 48 minutes, so he was nearly 7% faster than everyone else (as he actually lost time on the descent to the finish and in between the two climbs). Obviously a different sport, but Ben Johnson's 1988 win and Bolt's 2008 win were around 2% faster than the rest. Even cycling's own "Ben Johnson moment" with Ullrich on Arcalis saw him beat Virenque and Pantani by just over a minute, which given the speed he went up it meant he beat them by around 4.5%.
A 7% margin is absolutely huge at this level.
Maybe a lot has to do with his preparation – I read during May-June he rode every stage (or maybe it was just every possibly significant stage, but still more than many contestants actually do).
Also one needs to remember his main opposition – those with good track records have aged, and the others have yet to show top GC consistency.
I am enjoying his domination without it being the result of a controlling team train.0 -
He also climbed the Col de Romme 20 seconds faster than the Schleck brothers and Contador did in 2009.hypster said:Pogacar climbed the Col de la Colombiere in 21:55 yesterday. Dan Martin managed it 2 seconds faster in the 2018 Tour. Not much speculation of doping about that "superhuman effort" there...
Climbing faster than convicted dopers adds some speculation.
But as always climbing times need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Wind direction, the race tactics, were they going full gas etc etc.***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****0 -
As I explained, Froome gained 3 minutes on the Dumoulin chasers over 80km (so was a few % faster than those 5 over that distance), with much of his gain being made on descents.TheBigBean said:In 2018, only five riders were within 8 mins of Froome. It was a stunning performance given his form earlier in the race. All the other super human performances you reference involve winning races.
Edited to correct year. Important details.
Pogacar gained over 3 minutes in just over 45 minutes of climbing. It's quite significantly different. Like I said, it's a level of dominance over his rivals that hasn't been seen in a generation or more.0 -
Formolo faces. That is all.0
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Well, that and they also did it the old fashioned way - spent a shedload of money on better riders.mididoctors said:
You can look at Bahrain and think ...how come they all got so good all of a sudden ... But it could just be they are doing training right .
UAE also...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
phreak said:
I've been wracking my brains to try and think of a more dominant performance in my lifetime and if we're discounting Armstrong on Hautucam and Pantani on les Deux Alpes for obvious reasons, I have to go back to Indurain on La Plagne, and even then he "only" put 2 minutes into Tonkov and Pantani, with a VAM around 100 less than Pogacar yesterday. Maybe Hinault or Mercxc or someone did something as dominant but they were a bit before my time.mididoctors said:I know what to
Think of pogacar's performance It's surreal .
Merckx won a stage by just under 8 minutes in 1969. Conversely, in 1971 Luis Ocana won a stage nearly six minutes ahead of Van Impe and nearly nine minutes ahead of Merckx in third. (He'd started the day only 1 second of Yellow). He should have won that Tour but crashed out on a descent while over seven minutes up on GC.
In 1986 Hinault and LeMond finished 5 minutes ahead of everyone on Alpe d'Huez. If LeMond had ridden the Alpe hard (rather than 'like a tourist') he probably could have won the stage by 10.Twitter: @RichN951 -
For all the understandable fuss about his attack on the Peyresourde last year, you had guys like Porte, Quintana, Lopez, and Uran within 40 seconds of him at the finish. Those are guys that he has now absolutely annihilated by 4.5x as much.jimmyjams said:
I've seen ascent times for yesterday's Romme ascent, and I don't think Pogacar's time was that exceptional compared to previous.phreak said:
He gained around 3 minutes over 80km or so and he took a large chunk of his time back on the descent. Even if you assume a rapid pace of 40kmhr for those 80km, it would put him about 2% faster than Carapaz, Dumoulin et al after he attacked.tailwindhome said:
How much time did Froome take back on that celebrated Giro stage?phreak said:
I think that's kind of the point, as since the sport has tried to present itself as cleaner, the margins have been much smaller. For instance, Froome's ride on Ventoux raised eyebrows, yet that day he beat Quintana by 29 seconds and Contador by 1m40secs. Cancellara's demolition of the 2010 Ronde saw him beat Boonen by 1m15secs, Contador's climb on the Mortirolo in 2015 saw him gain around a minute on Landa to catch back up. These are the kind of time gaps we're now using as the benchmark for extraordinary performances, and then along comes Pogacar and puts 3 minutes into his rivals.Pross said:
Is there gloom about Pogacar? The usual insinuations about anyone who dominates (which I can understand) and a bit of disappointment that it looks like the hoped for GC battle isn't going to happen and that the race is already settled on the first weekend barring further accidents but I suspect most people found his ride very entertaining. It's certainly a step up from chasing bonus seconds on the final climb in my opinion.amrushton said:So Cav is doing well despite all the gloom about Pogacar. Sprinters abandoning or getting eliminated so looking good for him. Ineos and JV not dominating and no power trains going up the climbs. Is this not what many of us wanted? Glass at least half full.
By any reasonable measure, it's the kind of performance that people should have been talking about as one of the most dominant in the history of the sport, and yet the reaction is almost muted, as though people don't believe it but don't want to openly state it reeks so they're holding back instead.
Pogacar went over the final climbs yesterday in about 48 minutes, so he was nearly 7% faster than everyone else (as he actually lost time on the descent to the finish and in between the two climbs). Obviously a different sport, but Ben Johnson's 1988 win and Bolt's 2008 win were around 2% faster than the rest. Even cycling's own "Ben Johnson moment" with Ullrich on Arcalis saw him beat Virenque and Pantani by just over a minute, which given the speed he went up it meant he beat them by around 4.5%.
A 7% margin is absolutely huge at this level.
Maybe a lot has to do with his preparation – I read during May-June he rode every stage (or maybe it was just every possibly significant stage, but still more than many contestants actually do).
Also one needs to remember his main opposition – those with good track records have aged, and the others have yet to show top GC consistency.
I am enjoying his domination without it being the result of a controlling team train.0 -
When were they a shambles? They made a mistake when they missed closing down one break but otherwise? Got some good riders.gsk82 said:His team did go from shambles to dominating the front of the pelaton on a mountain stage overnight today.
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Pogacar right now reminds me of the anecdote about Merckx storming into the room with a map.
"Tomorrow we attack here!"
"Attack? Attack who?"0
