Euro 2020/21 (more football, sorry Brian)

surrey_commuter

joe2019 said:

rjsterry said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_penalty_shoot-outs

† = shoot-out in the World Cup final.

I tend to agree that it's not a great way to end any match, let alone a tournament. Imagine the Eng and Aus settling the Ashes over first to hit a 6, or the Tour decided on a 1km sprint. I guess they could just accept a draw.

Of course, The World Cup cricket final was decided with a 'Super Over'.

and after that was a countback on number of 4's hit

edited to add - this is how we won as weren't scores level in the super over?

Italy won a Euros semi onthe toss of a coin pre penalty shootouts

joe2019

surrey_commuter said:

joe2019 said:

rjsterry said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_penalty_shoot-outs

† = shoot-out in the World Cup final.

I tend to agree that it's not a great way to end any match, let alone a tournament. Imagine the Eng and Aus settling the Ashes over first to hit a 6, or the Tour decided on a 1km sprint. I guess they could just accept a draw.

Of course, The World Cup cricket final was decided with a 'Super Over'.

and after that was a countback on number of 4'censored

edited to add - this is how we won as weren't scores level in the super over?

Italy won a Euros semi onthe toss of a coin pre penalty shootouts

Toss of a coin is crazy.

And the Golden Goal, which was downgraded to the Silver Goal.

joe2019

.

MattFalle

together with the laser pointer and other stuff the other day and this latest lot, England have had more charges raised against them from their Euro failure than amount of goals they scored

https://metro.co.uk/2021/07/13/england-charged-with-four-offences-by-uefa-after-wembley-chaos-at-euro-2020-final-14922781/?ito=upday

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

together with the laser pointer and other stuff the other day and this latest lot, England have had more charges raised against them from their Euro failure than amount of goals they scored

https://metro.co.uk/2021/07/13/england-charged-with-four-offences-by-uefa-after-wembley-chaos-at-euro-2020-final-14922781/?ito=upday

If you keep grinding there won't be any axe left.

TheBigBean

Good summary of the policing/fan problems here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57829412

It's all a bit odd as they usually have lots of horses there blocking the road. I'm also surprised they didn't apply for some sort of street drinking ban given the kick-off time.

Finally, fans moving is very common if people are standing. Not sure there is much of a solution, but it is annoying and the most compelling argument against bringing back permanent standing.

DeVlaeminck

I doubt people would move from seated areas to a standing area - why pay more for a ticket - and no doubt they'd have some kind of barrier to moving anyway to stop it happening the other way.

Isn't this just an issue of fans without tickets entering certain areas and meaning those areas were beyond capacity?

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

I doubt people would move from seated areas to a standing area - why pay more for a ticket - and no doubt they'd have some kind of barrier to moving anyway to stop it happening the other way.

Isn't this just an issue of fans without tickets entering certain areas and meaning those areas were beyond capacity?

Two issues. Fans without tickets forcing their way in and fans moving seats.

The latter is quite common and I find it annoying. At Wembley there is usually one person checking your ticket on entry to each block which makes it harder, but I'm sure they would have overwhelmed given everything else.

Usually football matches have loads of police, but this is paid for by the clubs on the independent advice of the police. I wonder if the funding wasn't quite so simple for this game, so they didn't have as many.

Also, the planned standing areas are basically like seated areas without the seats, so you get a space to stand in. The problem is that people won't stand in their dedicated standing place.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I doubt people would move from seated areas to a standing area - why pay more for a ticket - and no doubt they'd have some kind of barrier to moving anyway to stop it happening the other way.

Isn't this just an issue of fans without tickets entering certain areas and meaning those areas were beyond capacity?

Two issues. Fans without tickets forcing their way in and fans moving seats.

The latter is quite common and I find it annoying. At Wembley there is usually one person checking your ticket on entry to each block which makes it harder, but I'm sure they would have overwhelmed given everything else.

Usually football matches have loads of police, but this is paid for by the clubs on the independent advice of the police. I wonder if the funding wasn't quite so simple for this game, so they didn't have as many.

Also, the planned standing areas are basically like seated areas without the seats, so you get a space to stand in. The problem is that people won't stand in their dedicated standing place.

Given the ongoing inquiry on the Manchester Arena bombing, and its findings on the laxity of security, you'd think they might be a bit tighter on this sort of thing.

elbowloh

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I doubt people would move from seated areas to a standing area - why pay more for a ticket - and no doubt they'd have some kind of barrier to moving anyway to stop it happening the other way.

Isn't this just an issue of fans without tickets entering certain areas and meaning those areas were beyond capacity?

Two issues. Fans without tickets forcing their way in and fans moving seats.

The latter is quite common and I find it annoying. At Wembley there is usually one person checking your ticket on entry to each block which makes it harder, but I'm sure they would have overwhelmed given everything else.

Usually football matches have loads of police, but this is paid for by the clubs on the independent advice of the police. I wonder if the funding wasn't quite so simple for this game, so they didn't have as many.

Also, the planned standing areas are basically like seated areas without the seats, so you get a space to stand in. The problem is that people won't stand in their dedicated standing place.

The standing areas in stadia in Germany are really wide steps (much wider than anything I've experienced in England, much more room than even the corporate seats at Wembley, with a barrier in front. There is a also a fold down seat so you can sit if you want (e.g. during half time).

That's my experience of Hamburg, Kaiserlautern and Hannover 15 years ago even.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

Good summary of the policing/fan problems here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57829412

It's all a bit odd as they usually have lots of horses there blocking the road. I'm also surprised they didn't apply for some sort of street drinking ban given the kick-off time.

Finally, fans moving is very common if people are standing. Not sure there is much of a solution, but it is annoying and the most compelling argument against bringing back permanent standing.

If Wembley was at capacity for the Denmark game then it was noticeably fuller for the Final, there must have been thousands that got in

TheBigBean

elbowloh said:

TheBigBean said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I doubt people would move from seated areas to a standing area - why pay more for a ticket - and no doubt they'd have some kind of barrier to moving anyway to stop it happening the other way.

Isn't this just an issue of fans without tickets entering certain areas and meaning those areas were beyond capacity?

Two issues. Fans without tickets forcing their way in and fans moving seats.

The latter is quite common and I find it annoying. At Wembley there is usually one person checking your ticket on entry to each block which makes it harder, but I'm sure they would have overwhelmed given everything else.

Usually football matches have loads of police, but this is paid for by the clubs on the independent advice of the police. I wonder if the funding wasn't quite so simple for this game, so they didn't have as many.

Also, the planned standing areas are basically like seated areas without the seats, so you get a space to stand in. The problem is that people won't stand in their dedicated standing place.

The standing areas in stadia in Germany are really wide steps (much wider than anything I've experienced in England, much more room than even the corporate seats at Wembley, with a barrier in front. There is a also a fold down seat so you can sit if you want (e.g. during half time).

That's my experience of Hamburg, Kaiserlautern and Hannover 15 years ago even.

No idea how they stop people moving around in Germany.

When Cologne invaded the Emirates, they all moved around to one area near their own fans (kicking out families in the process) and generally behaved liked the England fans. Cologne had the audacity to blame Arsenal for failing to prevent thousands of ticketless Cologne fans from trying to enter the stadium. Perhaps England should try that here. It was no doubt Italy's fault somehow.

orraloon

There was a sesh on the R4 news at lunchtime where a police representative explained that Wembley / FA wouldn't pay for policing but organise their own internal security. Police presence therefore was outside the stadium, and as the guy put it once the trouble started the police were behind the problem rather than in front of it therefore ineffective. Person (ticketed) witnessing the troubles inside indicated that internal security tended to be young therefore inexperienced therefore unable to control the troublemakers.

morstar

orraloon said:

There was a sesh on the R4 news at lunchtime where a police representative explained that Wembley / FA wouldn't pay for policing but organise their own internal security. Police presence therefore was outside the stadium, and as the guy put it once the trouble started the police were behind the problem rather than in front of it therefore ineffective. Person (ticketed) witnessing the troubles inside indicated that internal security tended to be young therefore inexperienced therefore unable to control the troublemakers.

Yeah, internal security hardly equates to well trained security.
It is low paid bodies on the ground. Even with the best will in the world, they wouldn’t have the capability to deal with a major problem.

surrey_commuter

Wembley has always had ineffective, bribable minimum wage stewards. Ironically when I first attended a cup final in a segregated (post Hillsborough) standing pen I wondered why it was half empty. Certainly an eye opener what max capacity should look like.

Fvck knows how many people used to be in grounds pre-Hillsborough

verylonglegs

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/13/england-fan-who-stormed-euros-final-defends-his-actions

DeVlaeminck

surrey_commuter said:

Wembley has always had ineffective, bribable minimum wage stewards. Ironically when I first attended a cup final in a segregated (post Hillsborough) standing pen I wondered why it was half empty. Certainly an eye opener what max capacity should look like.

Fvck knows how many people used to be in grounds pre-Hillsborough

A lot more than pre Hillsborough

TheBigBean

verylonglegs said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/13/england-fan-who-stormed-euros-final-defends-his-actions

I wonder if he will get rumbled by CCTV and be less smug about it.

rjsterry

morstar said:

orraloon said:

There was a sesh on the R4 news at lunchtime where a police representative explained that Wembley / FA wouldn't pay for policing but organise their own internal security. Police presence therefore was outside the stadium, and as the guy put it once the trouble started the police were behind the problem rather than in front of it therefore ineffective. Person (ticketed) witnessing the troubles inside indicated that internal security tended to be young therefore inexperienced therefore unable to control the troublemakers.

Yeah, internal security hardly equates to well trained security.
It is low paid bodies on the ground. Even with the best will in the world, they wouldn’t have the capability to deal with a major problem.

Did these fans materialise from thin air just in front of the gates? And the Met insisting they did absolutely nothing wrong. Plus ça change.

DeVlaeminck

Apparently jibbing (I'd never heard the word until this episode) your way into big games at Wembley is notoriously easy - googled it and there are several press reports about it happening at cup finals. I guess if enough people know of other people that have done It successfully it encourages you to have a go.

elbowloh

DeVlaeminck said:

Apparently jibbing (I'd never heard the word until this episode) your way into big games at Wembley is notoriously easy - googled it and there are several press reports about it happening at cup finals. I guess if enough people know of other people that have done It successfully it encourages you to have a go.

If it's that well known, you'd have thought the FA would know and close down the entry points/mitigate the weaknesses. If the FA know about anything, they know about making money/protecting revenue.

skyblueamateur

elbowloh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Apparently jibbing (I'd never heard the word until this episode) your way into big games at Wembley is notoriously easy - googled it and there are several press reports about it happening at cup finals. I guess if enough people know of other people that have done It successfully it encourages you to have a go.

If it's that well known, you'd have thought the FA would know and close down the entry points/mitigate the weaknesses. If the FA know about anything, they know about making money/protecting revenue.

Jibbing has been going on since the late 70's early 80's.

It's not usually as blatant as hundreds storming the gates but if you want to get in to somewhere desperate enough there's usually a way.

Fake press passes and a hi-viz is very popular.

DeVlaeminck

I guess in the past the cost of making the stadium watertight exceeded the benefit when these matches were sold out anyway.

The reputational damage from the weekend is considerable though - all the talk is not of England's best finish since '66 but about fan misbehaviour and racism.

womack

DeVlaeminck said:

I guess in the past the cost of making the stadium watertight exceeded the benefit when these matches were sold out anyway.

The reputational damage from the weekend is considerable though - all the talk is not of England's best finish since '66 but about fan misbehaviour and racism.

Would imagine gives FIFA lots of ammunition to deny the UK and Ireland 2030 World Cup bid.

Just a shame us Celts probably won't get to host any games in my lifetime due to the actions of these people.

Jezyboy

I'm sure if the money is right FIFA wont GAF.

Everyone will claim that lessons have been learned, and it will be forgotten about.

This does seem like the culmination of lots of cruddy circumstances, leading to a shitty outcome.

rjsterry

Jezyboy said:

I'm sure if the money is right FIFA wont GAF.

Everyone will claim that lessons have been learned, and it will be forgotten about.

This does seem like the culmination of lots of cruddy circumstances, leading to a shitty outcome.

If the 5000 estimate is even close it does demonstrate that the security is little more than there in name only. If someone with more malign intents than just watching the match without a ticket had tried their luck, they'd have not had much of an obstacle.

womack

Jezyboy said:

I'm sure if the money is right FIFA wont GAF.

Yes, you are probably correct with that statement.

Pross

rjsterry said:

morstar said:

orraloon said:

There was a sesh on the R4 news at lunchtime where a police representative explained that Wembley / FA wouldn't pay for policing but organise their own internal security. Police presence therefore was outside the stadium, and as the guy put it once the trouble started the police were behind the problem rather than in front of it therefore ineffective. Person (ticketed) witnessing the troubles inside indicated that internal security tended to be young therefore inexperienced therefore unable to control the troublemakers.

Yeah, internal security hardly equates to well trained security.
It is low paid bodies on the ground. Even with the best will in the world, they wouldn’t have the capability to deal with a major problem.

Did these fans materialise from thin air just in front of the gates? And the Met insisting they did absolutely nothing wrong. Plus ça change.

I don't think the Met have any role in checking tickets though so as long as the supporters without tickets are behaving and looking like they belong I don't see what else the Met could do.

If the stewards checking tickets pick up on it or start getting trouble at the gates then obviously it becomes a police issue.

joe2019

skyblueamateur said:

elbowloh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Apparently jibbing (I'd never heard the word until this episode) your way into big games at Wembley is notoriously easy - googled it and there are several press reports about it happening at cup finals. I guess if enough people know of other people that have done It successfully it encourages you to have a go.

If it's that well known, you'd have thought the FA would know and close down the entry points/mitigate the weaknesses. If the FA know about anything, they know about making money/protecting revenue.

Jibbing has been going on since the late 70's early 80's.

It's not usually as blatant as hundreds storming the gates but if you want to get in to somewhere desperate enough there's usually a way.

Fake press passes and a hi-viz is very popular.

Jibbing has been going on since the late 1870's early 1880's.