Euro 2020/21 (more football, sorry Brian)

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

As per the article posted above, these are reasonable questions, but it's easy to overplay the effect of that one managerial decision, and discount all the other factors that were not in either team's control.

This whole myth about the curse of England and penalties is based on just 9 (now 10) matches out of 1021 played, and we won 3 of them.

it is not a myth and it is not a curse, statistically we are awful at penalty competitions. It may only be 7 matches we lost on penalties but the 1021 is irrelevant as that means we went out of 7 tournaments on penalties. The relevant stat is how many tournaments have we reached the knockout stage.

We are very likely to face penalties in Qatar and we should be looking at anything we can do to improve our performance in that crucial area.

Personally I would try and create more meaningful penalty shoot outs in domestic football by scrapping all replays and extra time

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

As per the article posted above, these are reasonable questions, but it's easy to overplay the effect of that one managerial decision, and discount all the other factors that were not in either team's control.

This whole myth about the curse of England and penalties is based on just 9 (now 10) matches out of 1021 played, and we won 3 of them.

It's important, when watching football, to ignore anything pundits say. It is highly unlikely to be based on any statistical analysis and will just be a gut reaction to what has happened.

Especially when the pundit is saying "The trick is to find a way to win the match.", which I think I heard from the other room on Sunday.

MattFalle

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

QED. 😆

surrey_commuter

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

Again, there have literally only been ten England matches decided on penalties in the entire history of England football. Your data set is too small to draw useful conclusions.

MattFalle

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

you guessed wrong unfortunately - before my knees fell apart I used to play a lot (nothing higher than representing university) but I was all right I suppose. no Pirlo or Zola, but then no one ever will be.

you practise pens like anything else - after all, wasn't it famed that Beckham honed his free kicks by practising for hours and hours and hours? I think the english media masturbatedover that for a while. Same for golfers and their swing, loads of other examples.

Remember as well, these guys are quite talented at kicking a ball around so really there is no excuse for not at least getting it on target.....

You could let a 'keeper off for blasting his over the 'bar but someone who's actual job it is?

Nah, fam.

DeVlaeminck

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

Yes I find this with amateur players who aren't regular forwards or goalscorers when they get a chance. They play it safe to hit the target - but they take so much pace off the strike in case they sky it and don't aim for the corners in case they go a little too wide it's never going to beat the keeper.

As you say (unless you wait for the keeper to move) the target is small and gets smaller if you don't hit it with a lot of speed. Some of those England penalties just reminded me of those amateur players trying so hard not to make a mistake they made it easy for the keeper - you need to risk getting it badly wrong to really get it right.

ddraver

Wasnt it 'proved' that it's a psychological self fulfilling prophecy with many teams who struggle with penalites.

Italy would have stepped up thinking, "Si, I play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, I paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive sports car and kick football, get psychological training to help get millions spent on training ground, food , EPO football clothes, ouchies, have ego the size of a collosus, so of course I kick ball in net from 12 yards...or at least hit target."

England step up thinking, "OhFuckOhShitOhChrist, HereWeAreAgain!! If I miss this I've ruined everything, My professional life will change for ever, my career will only ever be remembered for this one moment (look at the gaffer). I will be villified at home, be crucified in the press, I'll have to move house for my families safety and be shouted, jeered at by fat losers for ever"

So it's no surprise who wins...

Dorset_Boy

MattFalle said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

you guessed wrong unfortunately - before my knees fell apart I used to play a lot (nothing higher than representing university) but I was all right I suppose. no Pirlo or Zola, but then no one ever will be.

you practise pens like anything else - after all, wasn't it famed that Beckham honed his free kicks by practising for hours and hours and hours? I think the english media masturbatedover that for a while. Same for golfers and their swing, loads of other examples.

Remember as well, these guys are quite talented at kicking a ball around so really there is no excuse for not at least getting it on target.....

You could let a 'keeper off for blasting his over the 'bar but someone who's actual job it is?

Nah, fam.

So Mr Smart@rse, other than Marcus Rashford who only missed the target by 2 inches, which of the other 9 penalty takers on Sunday missed the target?

And do you think the likes of Southgate were lying about practicing penalties?

MattFalle

Dorset_Boy said:

MattFalle said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

you guessed wrong unfortunately - before my knees fell apart I used to play a lot (nothing higher than representing university) but I was all right I suppose. no Pirlo or Zola, but then no one ever will be.

you practise pens like anything else - after all, wasn't it famed that Beckham honed his free kicks by practising for hours and hours and hours? I think the english media masturbatedover that for a while. Same for golfers and their swing, loads of other examples.

Remember as well, these guys are quite talented at kicking a ball around so really there is no excuse for not at least getting it on target.....

You could let a 'keeper off for blasting his over the 'bar but someone who's actual job it is?

Nah, fam.

So Mr Smart@rse, other than Marcus Rashford who only missed the target by 2 inches, which of the other 9 penalty takers on Sunday missed the target?

And do you think the likes of Southgate were lying about practicing penalties?

2 other english blokes which is why they list and Italy won.

no they weren't at all, its just absolutely no excuse to say that Sancho et al shouldn't have taken them and that someone "more experienced" should have.

in fact its pretty insulting to Sancho et al to say they shouldn't haven taken them considering they are professionals at the very very top of their games.

Oh - by the way - et al means "and other people" , just so you know. Al isn't another player on the night.

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

Yes I find this with amateur players who aren't regular forwards or goalscorers when they get a chance. They play it safe to hit the target - but they take so much pace off the strike in case they sky it and don't aim for the corners in case they go a little too wide it's never going to beat the keeper.

As you say (unless you wait for the keeper to move) the target is small and gets smaller if you don't hit it with a lot of speed. Some of those England penalties just reminded me of those amateur players trying so hard not to make a mistake they made it easy for the keeper - you need to risk getting it badly wrong to really get it right.

I said broadly this upthread. What puzzles me is the number of "amateur" penalties that still get taken even in premier league by the main penalty taker.

Dorset_Boy

MattFalle said:

Dorset_Boy said:

MattFalle said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

you guessed wrong unfortunately - before my knees fell apart I used to play a lot (nothing higher than representing university) but I was all right I suppose. no Pirlo or Zola, but then no one ever will be.

you practise pens like anything else - after all, wasn't it famed that Beckham honed his free kicks by practising for hours and hours and hours? I think the english media masturbatedover that for a while. Same for golfers and their swing, loads of other examples.

Remember as well, these guys are quite talented at kicking a ball around so really there is no excuse for not at least getting it on target.....

You could let a 'keeper off for blasting his over the 'bar but someone who's actual job it is?

Nah, fam.

So Mr Smart@rse, other than Marcus Rashford who only missed the target by 2 inches, which of the other 9 penalty takers on Sunday missed the target?

And do you think the likes of Southgate were lying about practicing penalties?

2 other english blokes which is why they list and Italy won.

no they weren't at all, its just absolutely no excuse to say that Sancho et al shouldn't have taken them and that someone "more experienced" should have.

in fact its pretty insulting to Sancho et al to say they shouldn't haven taken them considering they are professionals at the very very top of their games.

Oh - by the way - et al means "and other people" , just so you know. Al isn't another player on the night.

All the other 9 penalty shots were all on target, bar Rashfords. That, as you like to say is a fact.

There were however 2 Italian and 3 english shots that were SAVED b y the keeper. That is also a fact.

25 years ago Southgate put his penalty over the bar. He missed the target. That is also a fact.

TheBigBean

Dorset_Boy said:

25 years ago Southgate put his penalty over the bar. He missed the target. That is also a fact.

His was saved, so not a fact. A poor kick.

TheBigBean

The standard of penalties was higher 25 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EiE7eLWI_M

elbowloh

I bet you if Italy had won the game 2-1 with a goal in extra time, there wouldn't be half as much outrage or soul searching about the result as there is now...and yet, if you think about it, taking it to pens is more of an achievement that losing the game in injury time.

kingstongraham

I'm just glad to be back to having almost no interest in football again.

Jezyboy

TheBigBean said:

The standard of penalties was higher 25 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EiE7eLWI_M

No diking around trying to send the goalie the wrong way

MattFalle

TheBigBean said:

Dorset_Boy said:

25 years ago Southgate put his penalty over the bar. He missed the target. That is also a fact.

His was saved, so not a fact. A poor kick.

Fact

Much like Italy beating England again.....

MattFalle

elbowloh said:

I bet you if Italy had won the game 2-1 with a goal in extra time, there wouldn't be half as much outrage or soul searching about the result as there is now...and yet, if you think about it, taking it to pens is more of an achievement that losing the game in injury time.

now that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

morstar

The penalty shoot out scenario isn’t entirely trainable.
In open play, players have both successes and failures flowing continually.
Unless a goal is scored or a game changing moment conceded, these are transient moments reacted to subconsciously.
A penalty in a shoot out is a nowhere to hide, no redemption for failure moment that you simply cannot practice for.
Sure, you can practice the kick but you can’t replicate the pressure.
I can putt at golf pretty reliably from a couple of feet out but what if the putt came with a massive risk/reward scenario?
Still only two foot putt but I reckon it becomes far harder to execute.
The penalty isn’t a one dimensional execution either. There’s a bloke in the goal trying to stop it.

elbowloh

MattFalle said:

elbowloh said:

I bet you if Italy had won the game 2-1 with a goal in extra time, there wouldn't be half as much outrage or soul searching about the result as there is now...and yet, if you think about it, taking it to pens is more of an achievement that losing the game in injury time.

now that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

It's true.

What's your beef? I'm not belittling Italy at all, i'm talking about the criticism of England post the match.

Back in your box.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

Again, there have literally only been ten England matches decided on penalties in the entire history of England football. Your data set is too small to draw useful conclusions.

Whilst you may be right statistically I think you are in denial about the importance of penalty shoot outs and how sh1te we are compared to any other country except Spain.

Since penalty shoot outs were introduced this is our record when we have reached the knockout stage
WC - lost 3 of 8 on penalties
Euros - lost 4 of 5 on penalties

If I had any influence I would spend more time improving our penalty taking and ignoring worries about the size of the data set

MattFalle

because its not an achievement per se, really, is it?

elbowloh

MattFalle said:

because its not an achievement per se, really, is it?

which is not what i was saying.

MattFalle

elbowloh said:

MattFalle said:

because its not an achievement per se, really, is it?

which is not what i was saying.

your exact words: "an achievement"

You typed it above

i knowEnglish is my third language but hey, am I missing something?

MattFalle

its not an achievement in any facet of life to go anywhere and lose, fail, whatever you want to call it.

the hubris of mediocrity.

that's called failure, you know, what England did on Sunday.

an achievement is winning, coming out best, that sort of thing, you know, what Italy did on Sunday.

ddraver

You could have a pretty good football match with all the straw men MF is creating...

kingstongraham

Equal best at football, and best at penalty kicks, yes.

kingstongraham

(I guess also equal with Spain)