Euro 2020/21 (more football, sorry Brian)

tetley10

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

MattFalle said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I had no issue with bringing on young players to take penalties if they are the better penalty takers - only with bringing 2 on so close to the final whistle that they'd still have that nervous energy, that surge of adrenaline, and that's not what you want when you are in a pressure situation like penalties.

As Southgate said though if he brought them on with 15 to go would we have reached penalties? I suppose the response might be why not bring them on for Sterling and Grealish if they weren't on the list ?

i think it doesn't matter whether you are 17 or 40, if you play professional football in front of crowds of 70,000 people (averaging across all grounds lets say for the pedants on here) every week, get paid millions of pounds a year to do it, do nothing but shop, sleep, drive a sports car and kick a football, get psychological training to help you, get millions spent on your training ground, nutrition, prep, equpt, medical care, have the ego the size of a collosus then you should be able to kick a ball in a net from 12 yards or at least hit the target.

whilst I agree with your sentiment I am guessing that football is not one of your primary sports. They are not aiming at the net they are aiming at the edges with a high level of power. Statistically we are comparable with other countries in open play but drop off far more in penalty competitions

Again, there have literally only been ten England matches decided on penalties in the entire history of England football. Your data set is too small to draw useful conclusions.

Whilst you may be right statistically I think you are in denial about the importance of penalty shoot outs and how sh1te we are compared to any other country except Spain.

Since penalty shoot outs were introduced this is our record when we have reached the knockout stage
WC - lost 3 of 8 on penalties
Euros - lost 4 of 5 on penalties

If I had any influence I would spend more time improving our penalty taking and ignoring worries about the size of the data set

I think it's great we got to the final. That should really be enough for everyone, but for some reason the English have this maudlin need to p*** on anything we are actually reasonably good at. I cannot for the life of me understand the need to endlessly dissect what was a tiny part of one game or try to fraudulently create some grand narrative about England being bad at penalties when most players will only ever see one or two of these in their international careers. We didn't score as many as Italy that's all it is. There is no pattern or hidden information to uncover. The whole team could spend the next year only practicing penalties and all it would do is make them less good at the other 99% of the game.

MattFalle

kingstongraham said:

Equal best at football, and best at penalty kicks, yes.

34 unbeaten means better.

MattFalle

kingstongraham said:

(I guess also equal with Spain)

who are actually very good and, as has been wildly agreed on this thread, better than England who lost on Sunday to Italy.

MattFalle

ddraver said:

You could have a pretty good football match with all the straw men MF is creating...

😂😂😃

elbowloh

MattFalle said:

elbowloh said:

MattFalle said:

because its not an achievement per se, really, is it?

which is not what i was saying.

your exact words: "an achievement"

You typed it above

i knowEnglish is my third language but hey, am I missing something?

but that was not the point of the post.

You're just being deliberately obtuse.

The point i was making was that the outcry wouldn't be half as bad if Italy had won in extra time or even normal time.

kingstongraham

MattFalle said:

kingstongraham said:

Equal best at football, and best at penalty kicks, yes.

34 unbeaten means better.

That's not a logical truth.

DeVlaeminck

MattFalle said:

its not an achievement in any facet of life to go anywhere and lose, fail, whatever you want to call it.

the hubris of mediocrity.

that's called failure, you know, what England did on Sunday.

an achievement is winning, coming out best, that sort of thing, you know, what Italy did on Sunday.

The fact that from your posts you are obviously not a football fan does limit the effect of your trolling on this.

rjsterry

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

MattFalle

DeVlaeminck said:

MattFalle said:

its not an achievement in any facet of life to go anywhere and lose, fail, whatever you want to call it.

the hubris of mediocrity.

that's called failure, you know, what England did on Sunday.

an achievement is winning, coming out best, that sort of thing, you know, what Italy did on Sunday.

The fact that from your posts you are obviously not a football fan does limit the effect of your trolling on this.

thing us, I am a football fan and none of this debate is trolling - its called debate.

Why would you say I'm not a football fan? because I'm not singing the praises of a massively continually underperforming national team?

Having introduced the "t" word next thing you'll do us invoke Godwin's invariably.

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

MattFalle

elbowloh said:

MattFalle said:

elbowloh said:

MattFalle said:

because its not an achievement per se, really, is it?

which is not what i was saying.

your exact words: "an achievement"

You typed it above

i knowEnglish is my third language but hey, am I missing something?

but that was not the point of the post.

You're just being deliberately obtuse.

The point i was making was that the outcry wouldn't be half as bad if Italy had won in extra time or even normal time.

Easy fella - I'm not obtuse. 6'2, 85kg, 32" inch waist, barely any fat at all on me.

I think you'll find I'm quite the opposite of obtuse if you don't mind.

rjsterry

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

rjsterry

Well looky here.

World Cup penalty shoot out stats.

Most lost
3 - England (1990, 1998, 2006)
3 - Italy (1990, 1994†, 1998)
3 - Spain (1986, 2002, 2018)

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

Well looky here.

World Cup penalty shoot out stats.

Most lost
3 - England (1990, 1998, 2006)
3 - Italy (1990, 1994†, 1998)
3 - Spain (1986, 2002, 2018)

Go to be in it to lose it, so to speak.

But the sample size is so small.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

Well looky here.

World Cup penalty shoot out stats.

Most lost
3 - England (1990, 1998, 2006)
3 - Italy (1990, 1994†, 1998)
3 - Spain (1986, 2002, 2018)

but italy won the important one on Sunday

plus they have 4 gold stars and two whatever colour they give the Euro winners

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

😆 Whatever gave you that idea? No not a fan. Based on the posts above that seems to make it a more enjoyable form of entertainment.

MattFalle

what does the cross next to 1994 denote by the way?

tetley10

Italy lost in the final in 1994 (if my memory serves me correctly) or you are noting that England were absent.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Well looky here.

World Cup penalty shoot out stats.

Most lost
3 - England (1990, 1998, 2006)
3 - Italy (1990, 1994†, 1998)
3 - Spain (1986, 2002, 2018)

your stats take no account of qualifying for a tournament or reaching the knockout phase. Spain are as bad as us but how many shootouts have Italy won?

We are shite at penalties and need to get better, that seems a much more achievable goal than getting better at football overall.

Maybe chose the 3rd choice keeper purely on his ability to save penalties and bring him on right at the end. If nothing else it would mess with the opposition.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

😆 Whatever gave you that idea? No not a fan. Based on the posts above that seems to make it a more enjoyable form of entertainment.

Only with a loss. I imagine if England had won, other people would have enjoyed it more than you.

I can't get too excited by international football despite being a sports fan, so I can see both sides of the discussion.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

Maybe chose the 3rd choice keeper purely on his ability to save penalties and bring him on right at the end. If nothing else it would mess with the opposition.

Louis van Gaal did that as a demonstration of his incredible tactical skills. He failed to notice that the other keeper on the bench actually had a better penalty record though.

rjsterry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_penalty_shoot-outs

† = shoot-out in the World Cup final.

I tend to agree that it's not a great way to end any match, let alone a tournament. Imagine the Eng and Aus settling the Ashes over first to hit a 6, or the Tour decided on a 1km sprint. I guess they could just accept a draw.

MattFalle

tetley10 said:

Italy lost in the final in 1994 (if my memory serves me correctly) or you are noting that England were absent.

the loss sounds plausible - even the mighty must stumble occasionally.

grazie!

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_penalty_shoot-outs

† = shoot-out in the World Cup final.

grazie!

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

😆 Whatever gave you that idea? No not a fan. Based on the posts above that seems to make it a more enjoyable form of entertainment.

Only with a loss. I imagine if England had won, other people would have enjoyed it more than you.

I can't get too excited by international football despite being a sports fan, so I can see both sides of the discussion.

Well sure. I get the disappointment at losing on not much more than a coin toss (notwithstanding disagreement on the skill:chance ratio in a shoot out) but that and the post mortem seem completely disproportionate to what is objectively one of their better results.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

😆 Whatever gave you that idea? No not a fan. Based on the posts above that seems to make it a more enjoyable form of entertainment.

Only with a loss. I imagine if England had won, other people would have enjoyed it more than you.

I can't get too excited by international football despite being a sports fan, so I can see both sides of the discussion.

Well sure. I get the disappointment at losing on not much more than a coin toss (notwithstanding disagreement on the skill:chance ratio in a shoot out) but that and the post mortem seem completely disproportionate to what is objectively one of their better results.

I don't get why people keeping talking about Shakespeare, but if Cake Stop had a thread for it, I would happily let them get on with it there.

joe2019

rjsterry said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIFA_World_Cup_penalty_shoot-outs

† = shoot-out in the World Cup final.

I tend to agree that it's not a great way to end any match, let alone a tournament. Imagine the Eng and Aus settling the Ashes over first to hit a 6, or the Tour decided on a 1km sprint. I guess they could just accept a draw.

Of course, The World Cup cricket final was decided with a 'Super Over'.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

rjsterry said:

tetley10 said:

An achievement would have been to have had more than 2 shots on target and to make the opposition keeper make a meaningful save in the game. Yes England were good for 1/2 an hour and yes they defended well but surely you try to win it rather to try not to lose it.

Careful, you almost sounded slightly positive there.

Yes. What of it? We got to the final. We didn't play as well as the team that won (obviously) but not by so much that they could win in 90 or 120 minutes. That sounds pretty good to me. Better than all the other teams bar one. Daughters enjoyed staying up to watch it despite not winning. Your two did, too, I believe. They seem to be in a minority which is sad.

I feel like you are not a sports fan which is, of course, fine.

😆 Whatever gave you that idea? No not a fan. Based on the posts above that seems to make it a more enjoyable form of entertainment.

Only with a loss. I imagine if England had won, other people would have enjoyed it more than you.

I can't get too excited by international football despite being a sports fan, so I can see both sides of the discussion.

Well sure. I get the disappointment at losing on not much more than a coin toss (notwithstanding disagreement on the skill:chance ratio in a shoot out) but that and the post mortem seem completely disproportionate to what is objectively one of their better results.

I don't get why people keeping talking about Shakespeare, but if Cake Stop had a thread for it, I would happily let them get on with it there.

The chatting about it I get. I've been posting about it all day. I just don't get why it's so overwhelmingly negative.