Ardennes* races **Spoilers**
Comments
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Would you have preferred that?TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.0 -
Yes.rick_chasey said:
Would you have preferred that?TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.0 -
Green jersey comp could be great if the right riders go for it and it planets align. Sagan Vs Van Aert could be entertaining.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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I disagree.TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
Go back as far as you like and one thing becomes clear: the teams who won the green jersey, targeted it, because they had no serious GC contender."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Fair enough. I thought he was the most exciting rider in the race by a long way in last year's tour so I am struggling to come around to this view.TheBigBean said:
Yes.rick_chasey said:
Would you have preferred that?TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
I also don't rate the green jersey as a spectacle at all.0 -
Exactly this, people can't seem to get beyond that Sky era of all in for the Tour. Ineos have been active in virtually all the Classics / semi Classics this spring. They've taken 3rd at Strade, 1st at Dwars, 2nd at Amstel as well as a win at Brabantse Pijl.rick_chasey said:Ineos seem to win in depth tbf.
It’s not the same team it was 5 years ago
Meanwhile their 'GT' riders have managed 2nd at UAE and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at Catalunya (as well as that 3rd for Bernal in a one day race). The podium placings have been spread about a bit too.0 -
I'd need to see some analysis on that to believe it. Obviously having a whole team devoted to it is great, but I think some riders must have won without much support.blazing_saddles said:
I disagree.TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
Go back as far as you like and one thing becomes clear: the teams who won the green jersey, targeted it, because they had no serious GC contender.
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I don't really want strength in depth in one team. I want strength in depth in races. I want the best riders to compete against each other not take it in turns to ride.Pross said:
Exactly this, people can't seem to get beyond that Sky era of all in for the Tour. Ineos have been active in virtually all the Classics / semi Classics this spring. They've taken 3rd at Strade, 1st at Dwars, 2nd at Amstel as well as a win at Brabantse Pijl.rick_chasey said:Ineos seem to win in depth tbf.
It’s not the same team it was 5 years ago
Meanwhile their 'GT' riders have managed 2nd at UAE and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at Catalunya (as well as that 3rd for Bernal in a one day race). The podium placings have been spread about a bit too.0 -
I would be surprised if Pidcock hasn’t cost them a fair bit. They have been courting him for a fair while also he has managed to have his own team whilst a junior and under 23.DeVlaeminck said:But playing devils advocate a bit - throwing Pidcock at the classics is a bit of a free hit.
I can't imagine his wages are those of an established favourite. Sure Ineos will take any wins coming their way but they aren't throwing much of their budget at building a classics team and they expect them to double up as grand tour support and possibly choose classics riders on that basis.0 -
I think TBB wants to banish teams and have it being every man for himself.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
And supporting him with his MTB ambitions nextr0bh said:Just checking I've got this right, after giving Pidcock his head in all the spring races so far with spectacular results, you're all now criticizing Ineos for how they may deploy him in the future?
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There's not many sports where that happens unfortunately. I'm not a fan of seeing riders like Kwia in mountain trains at the expense of his own chances but ultimately a professional sportsman needs to earn the best salary they can while they can. Also, other than the occasional freak like MvdP, how many riders would be able to win regularly on teams that lack strength in depth?TheBigBean said:
I don't really want strength in depth in one team. I want strength in depth in races. I want the best riders to compete against each other not take it in turns to ride.Pross said:
Exactly this, people can't seem to get beyond that Sky era of all in for the Tour. Ineos have been active in virtually all the Classics / semi Classics this spring. They've taken 3rd at Strade, 1st at Dwars, 2nd at Amstel as well as a win at Brabantse Pijl.rick_chasey said:Ineos seem to win in depth tbf.
It’s not the same team it was 5 years ago
Meanwhile their 'GT' riders have managed 2nd at UAE and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at Catalunya (as well as that 3rd for Bernal in a one day race). The podium placings have been spread about a bit too.0 -
Yes, I understand it, but I don't need to like it.Pross said:
There's not many sports where that happens unfortunately. I'm not a fan of seeing riders like Kwia in mountain trains at the expense of his own chances but ultimately a professional sportsman needs to earn the best salary they can while they can.
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I don't like the current structure with high value intermediate sprints and more points for flat stages, but in general I like the idea.rick_chasey said:
Fair enough. I thought he was the most exciting rider in the race by a long way in last year's tour so I am struggling to come around to this view.TheBigBean said:
Yes.rick_chasey said:
Would you have preferred that?TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
I also don't rate the green jersey as a spectacle at all.
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Do you also worry that the polka dot jersey only gives out points on top of really big hills?TheBigBean said:I don't like the current structure with high value intermediate sprints and more points for flat stages, but in general I like the idea.
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We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
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vdB takes her 7th straight win in the women's race. Decent race, Winder kept it in out long enough but it was inevitable once they came back together.0
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Niewiadoma gave it a good dig - managed to stay shoulder to shoulder with van der Breggen until the last 100m or so, but it always looked inevitable once vdB got half a wheel in front.
Did look like Winder had a chance at one point - the chase behind was farcical at points, but eventually Vollering was ordered to sacrifice herself and that stopped the gap from growing.0 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver1 -
UAE team have all been jabbed as well haven't they? Would be worrying if they'd genuinely come up +vebobmcstuff said:0 -
Vaccine does not prevent catching the virus (though likely reduces chances). It does decrease viral persistence/replication and hence the conversion to disease (dramatically). If viral load is reduced, your likelihood of transmission will be reduced too.yorkshireraw said:
UAE team have all been jabbed as well haven't they? Would be worrying if they'd genuinely come up +vebobmcstuff said:
Edit: that’s not well phrased but the point stands.0 -
Are there numbers on how effective at preventing the spread the Sinopharm vaccine is?Mad_Malx said:
Vaccine does not prevent catching the virus (though likely reduces chances). It does decrease viral persistence/replication and hence the conversion to disease (dramatically). If viral load is reduced, your likelihood of transmission will be reduced too.yorkshireraw said:
UAE team have all been jabbed as well haven't they? Would be worrying if they'd genuinely come up +vebobmcstuff said:
Edit: that’s not well phrased but the point stands.0 -
I’d better qualify that by saying it depends how one views Contador in his last couple of seasons riding with Sagan at Tinkoff.TheBigBean said:
I'd need to see some analysis on that to believe it. Obviously having a whole team devoted to it is great, but I think some riders must have won without much support.blazing_saddles said:
I disagree.TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
Go back as far as you like and one thing becomes clear: the teams who won the green jersey, targeted it, because they had no serious GC contender.
The rest stands.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Rick it’s going to be Sporza for you.
The man of a dozen puns is back I’m afraid."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Right, I picked one year to do some analysis on this - 2012.blazing_saddles said:
I’d better qualify that by saying it depends how one views Contador in his last couple of seasons riding with Sagan at Tinkoff.TheBigBean said:
I'd need to see some analysis on that to believe it. Obviously having a whole team devoted to it is great, but I think some riders must have won without much support.blazing_saddles said:
I disagree.TheBigBean said:
On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.rick_chasey said:
Good question, so what indeed.blazing_saddles said:
So?rick_chasey said:
WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tourblazing_saddles said:
It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.TheBigBean said:
Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.blazing_saddles said:
Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?TheBigBean said:
That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.rick_chasey said:
My heart always sinks when I see thatRichN95. said:pinno said:<
Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
Also, is it really such a bad thing?
Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.
As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.
FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
Go back as far as you like and one thing becomes clear: the teams who won the green jersey, targeted it, because they had no serious GC contender.
The rest stands.
Sky. 1st and 2nd in GC. 4th in Green
Lotto–Belisol. 4th in GC. 2nd in Green
Liquigas–Cannondale. 3rd in GC. 1st in Green.
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Impressive from van der Breggen, so smooth. I know it's partly her style but I always feel van Vleuten is overgeared, especially for the super steep stuff.Lanterne_Rogue said:Niewiadoma gave it a good dig - managed to stay shoulder to shoulder with van der Breggen until the last 100m or so, but it always looked inevitable once vdB got half a wheel in front.
Did look like Winder had a chance at one point - the chase behind was farcical at points, but eventually Vollering was ordered to sacrifice herself and that stopped the gap from growing.0
