Ardennes* races **Spoilers**

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  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    pinno said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    Confirms Pidcock as a fast finisher anyway given how fast we know Van Aert is. I knew Pidcock was good before this year but not that he was this good. With his mixture of cross skills, decent sprint and light weight is there a monument he isn't a contender for? Would Lombardy be too much of a climbers race maybe?

    Who knows what he is capable of in the future but given his current physical size, surely Flanders and Roubaix is out of reach.
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?
    He was looking very good in Flanders until the last 20K or so. Said afterwards he didn't eat enough. Cobbles and climbs aren't going to phase him.

    Top class riders are top class on most things, with the exception of the big mountains maybe. It comes down to what they / their teams want to focus on I'd suggest.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Official official

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,143
    It's good they've put that blurry red line on it to make it obvious.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,312
    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    IMHO, there's too much emphasis on tours, especially the TdF. there's Roglic not doing any more racing until the TdF now.
    Why they never continued the World Cup Series, i'll never know. Surely that promoted the classics in there own right and was something to aim for?

    If someone said: 'you have a choice - you can either watch all the classics or the TdF', i'd watch the classics.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,320
    TheBigBean said:

    I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

    Not sure he'd be much help given his size. Spare bike, maybe. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,197
    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    One thing that might be a little bit different about Pidcock from Ineos' point of view is that (from a very low base) there seems to have been a little bit more reporting on cyclocross in the UK media since he's been threatening to do things. Ditto for the classics. They might consider that there's some decent publicity to be had from him concentrating on those for now.

    Sure, they'll probably want him to move towards stage races, but they've got that covered right now with their other riders.

    Will be interesting to see what happens when he starts his MTB campaign in 2 weeks; a Swiss Bike Cup, followed by 3 MTB World Cups.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    edited April 2021
    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    I'm not a fan of the way WvA rides in GTs, so I'm consistent on that point.

    I think aspiring GC riders do end up as support riders and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Indurain supported Delgado, Lemond supported Hinault etc. I'm not such a fan when they end up waiting for their leaders, but that is another matter.

    I just don't want to see hugely capable riders such as WvA riding as mountain support when they will never be GC riders.

    Now if Pidcock wants to be a GC rider then fair enough, let him support someone in a GT and see how he does, but don't do it because the team doesn't value the classics and is happy to waste a rider who isn't suited to it.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    It feels a bit clichéd to suggest Ineos don't value the Classics. They've given them a good shot this season including with Pidcock and were probably the strongest team at AGR.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,312
    TheBigBean said:


    ...but don't do it because the team doesn't value the classics and is happy to waste a rider who isn't suited to it.

    This ^.

    Although, as someone said previously, INEOS may just weigh up the publicity gained by Pidcock's success and that may influence future classics campaigns.
    INEOS have sufficient GT GC riders in the mix and in waiting.



    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    But playing devils advocate a bit - throwing Pidcock at the classics is a bit of a free hit.

    I can't imagine his wages are those of an established favourite. Sure Ineos will take any wins coming their way but they aren't throwing much of their budget at building a classics team and they expect them to double up as grand tour support and possibly choose classics riders on that basis.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,312
    DeVlaeminck said:

    But playing devils advocate a bit - throwing Pidcock at the classics is a bit of a free hit.

    I can't imagine his wages are those of an established favourite. Sure Ineos will take any wins coming their way but they aren't throwing much of their budget at building a classics team and they expect them to double up as grand tour support and possibly choose classics riders on that basis.

    Shock news: Pidcock signs for Deceuninck Quick step.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Two things

    1. The classics effectively end this week until September. If you are a Classics guy with GC contender in the team what are you going do for the rest of the time?

    2. I remember Dan Lloyd saying that it was important for him to ride the Tour as the first question he was asking when meeting non-cycling people was always whether he had ridden Tour. It's the only race normal people know.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,320
    DeVlaeminck said:

    But playing devils advocate a bit - throwing Pidcock at the classics is a bit of a free hit.

    I can't imagine his wages are those of an established favourite. Sure Ineos will take any wins coming their way but they aren't throwing much of their budget at building a classics team and they expect them to double up as grand tour support and possibly choose classics riders on that basis.

    I thought Ineos had the strongest team at AGR.
    Quite a few well known faces too.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    RichN95. said:

    Two things

    1. The classics effectively end this week until September. If you are a Classics guy with GC contender in the team what are you going do for the rest of the time?

    2. I remember Dan Lloyd saying that it was important for him to ride the Tour as the first question he was asking when meeting non-cycling people was always whether he had ridden Tour. It's the only race normal people know.

    1. Win some stages of some stuff
    2. Yes, ride it, and win some stages.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tour
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Ineos seem to win in depth tbf.

    It’s not the same team it was 5 years ago
    _
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    Just checking I've got this right, after giving Pidcock his head in all the spring races so far with spectacular results, you're all now criticizing Ineos for how they may deploy him in the future?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    r0bh said:

    Just checking I've got this right, after giving Pidcock his head in all the spring races so far with spectacular results, you're all now criticizing Ineos for how they may deploy him in the future?

    That's a reasonable summary. I'm also disappointed when riders like Adam Yates sign just because Ineos have enough GC riders and I'd prefer them to not all be on the same team.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    r0bh said:

    Just checking I've got this right, after giving Pidcock his head in all the spring races so far with spectacular results, you're all now criticizing Ineos for how they may deploy him in the future?

    Yes it's not unreasonable though .

    We are all cycling fans, you've said yourself he's shown some spectacular results in the classics, it's be odd if at least some of us didn't then hope he'd continue to develop as a classics rider wouldn't it?

    Maybe a British Tom Boonen will bring the classics to the attention of the British public?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,557
    TheBigBean said:

    r0bh said:

    Just checking I've got this right, after giving Pidcock his head in all the spring races so far with spectacular results, you're all now criticizing Ineos for how they may deploy him in the future?

    That's a reasonable summary. I'm also disappointed when riders like Adam Yates sign just because Ineos have enough GC riders and I'd prefer them to not all be on the same team.
    Is that the same Adam Yates who won only his 4th stage race the other week, or a different Adam Yates who is a prolific week long and GT winner?
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    rick_chasey said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tour
    So?
    One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Fleche Wallone coverage on GCN/Eurosport player: Women's race 10-05 to 11-30am BST. Men's race 12-00 to 16-00pmBST.




    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    blazing_saddles said:

    rick_chasey said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tour
    So?
    One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
    Good question, so what indeed.

    I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.

    FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    blazing_saddles said:

    Fleche Wallone coverage on GCN/Eurosport player: Women's race 10-05 to 11-30am BST. Men's race 12-00 to 16-00pmBST.




    Betfair odds, top 5 rest are 20/1 or longer.

    Primoz Roglic
    9/2
    Julian Alaphilippe
    5/1
    Tom Pidcock
    6/1
    Tadej Pogacar
    10/1
    Alejandro Valverde
    14/1
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    rick_chasey said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    rick_chasey said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    RichN95. said:

    pinno said:

    <
    Given his talent, will Ineos hone him as a Tour rider? If so, that may preclude him from a long term classics contender.
    Ineos/Sky have had a poor classics history. Do they build half a squad around a classics rider given Pidcocks potential?


    He's said himself that long term he sees himself as primarily a GT rider but he's in no hurry to specialise.
    My heart always sinks when I see that
    That's my feeling when a rider moves to Ineos.
    Just out of interest, which team/S would you prefer to see a young talent ride for?

    Any other team apart from DQS. I want to see riders compete in the races that they are good at. I don't want to see Kwiatkowski riding as a domestique for one of five GC riders in the three GTs each year. I don't want to see Froome being called back to wait etc.

    Pidcock has star potential and it would be good if he got to choose his races. I just fear someone will come up with the great idea that he should be a mountain domestique at a GT. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
    It's worth remembering at this point that even WVA is expected to ride as a Jumbo domestique at the Tour.

    Other than Tadej Pogacar, is there another young rider with potential who hasn't first had to cut his teeth as a support rider in GTs?
    The closest I would say is Egan Bernal.
    Also, is it really such a bad thing?
    Ineos have two young "mountain domestiques", riding in support of GT, who have already won GTs as a result.
    Tom Pidcock dominated the Baby Giro he won, so I think both he and Ineos have a clear understanding of what he is good at and his long term goals.


    As for Kwiatkowski, I am not sure he can be afforded the same luxury as a Peter Sagan or Julian Alaphilippe.
    WvA was given the opportunity to win two stages last tour
    So?
    One of those opportunities was handed to him by Bora.
    Good question, so what indeed.

    I guess all I mean is his leash isn't very tight at Jumbo. He's given the chance to win stages he's right for, and on the stages he's not he's put to work.

    FWIW I would have expected if he was at ineos to not have had a tilt at the sprint finishes.
    On any other team, he would have been going for the green jersey.

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