Women's safety

david37

DeVlaeminck said:

Similarly with domestic abuse I know more women that have suffered it - though I do know one guy - and he was a former marine and decent boxer so I know it can happen to physically tough men.

Id agree with the rape comment on your previous post but I suspect that domestic abuse is rife against men. its not something they can talk about easily. there's the shame and stigma and all that. plus there's a whole system set up to protect women where it doesn't exist for men.

not because men aren't the victim of domestic abuse and harassment but because society hasn't addressed the issue. which is why the whole women's safety issue is a bit of a red herring. it should be society behaviour and safety. it isn't a woman only thing.

kingstongraham

I think women's safety is about the safety of women, and the behaviour of men, to be fair.

It's not a red herring, but yes, there would be benefits for all in a society that is safer for women.

david37

safer for everyone Graham.

this overly virtuous self flagellation by the usual suspects is hilarious.

shirley_basso

You misunderstand (obviously).

It's not self flagellation, it's simply being more aware of the issue and how prevalent that is, and how horrendous that is.

I get that you are quite happy the way things are - but for others, there's more to life than living an inward facing existence.

john80

I think some people on here could do with getting an understanding of the legal definition of rape. For those that can't be bothered rape requires a penis so therefore you need to have a penis to rape. All these claimed instances of women raping men are actually committing assault by penetration. Quite how often this happens has got to be pretty low.

DeVlaeminck

Has anyone mentioned women raping men ?

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

Has anyone mentioned women raping men ?

No. Someone did mentioned that men get raped too which is obviously true but no-one suggested women were the perpetrators as far as I can tell.

kingstongraham

david37 said:

safer for everyone Graham.

this overly virtuous self flagellation by the usual suspects is hilarious.

This you?

https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/20715937/#Comment_20715937

kingstongraham

Anyway, this is a good article.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-moran-womens-safety-and-what-men-need-to-do-about-it-0n6g2rbbt

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

Anyway, this is a good article.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-moran-womens-safety-and-what-men-need-to-do-about-it-0n6g2rbbt

Any chance of a precis?

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

Anyway, this is a good article.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/caitlin-moran-womens-safety-and-what-men-need-to-do-about-it-0n6g2rbbt

Any chance of a precis?

Can't precis it, but copied instead.

Caitlin Moran
Tuesday March 16 2021, 5.00pm, The Times

Three years ago, our daughter had to catch a cheap, 1am flight from Stansted. The whole family drove her to the airport, and even got chips from the drive-thru McDonald’s on the way. We know how to have a good time.

However, as we drove through north London – Highgate, Barnet, Edmonton, Brent Cross – something started to make me feel odd. There was something wrong about what I was seeing, but I couldn’t, at first, put my finger on it. It was 11pm, on a Friday in July – the streets in the suburbs were reasonably busy with people walking home from restaurants, and pubs; or walking to friends’ houses. It was a hot night. People were enjoying the summer.

I realised what the odd thing was when I saw her: a woman, in her early twenties, in running gear, waiting at a zebra crossing. As I looked at her, I felt an automatic and terrible fear. My heart went cold. Why are you out?! Out now! In the dark! You should not be out!

She was, I realised, the first and only woman on her own that we had seen on our drive. That was the odd thing.

I kept looking at her, in the rear-view mirror, as we drove on. I realised I was describing her to myself, and noting where she was, in case… in case she ended up on a poster, or on the news. There’s a part of women’s brains – programmed after years of reports and names and campaigns – that will do this. A young woman, out at night, on her own, is a potential future tragedy. That’s what you think.


And as we kept driving – driving past young men laughing, messing about with friends, getting on with their Friday nights; men, only men – I realised, for the first time, what we were driving through: a curfew. Women curfewing themselves. Half the population stays at home after dark. Or else, if it does go out, constructs such an elaborate protection system – cabs, texts to friends, being walked home in a gang, keys between fingers – that it looks less like a normal social life, and more like a small, military incursion into no man’s land. No Woman’s Land: this country, after dark.

All you see is men on the streets, after dark. Like some weird version of The Purge. Women have purged themselves from the night.

——————————

Continues...

kingstongraham

The thing about this curfew, this cage, is – it’s been there so long, you often don’t notice it. You don’t need to notice it – after all, you built it yourself. To keep safe. I don’t think I had thought about mine for years.

But of course, right now, I’m noticing it – because the story of Sarah Everard has terrified every woman in this country; it has rattled us into talking and tweeting and thinking. Thinking: women make their lives smaller, and safer, and still this happens. Thinking: is there any way to change this? Thinking: do we ever intend to stop expecting that, when a woman goes out, on her own, after dark, the worst can happen?

Until now, I don’t know if I’ve ever consciously compared my working day to my husband’s. We’re both at home. We both write. In winter, a fact I know is that I will have to have completed all my work by 2.30-3pm, if I want to go out that day, to exercise or walk the dog. That’s the size and length of my days in the winter. They end when the sun goes down, because – I can’t go out once it’s dark.


He, on the other hand, can work until 5pm, or 6pm – an extra two hours’ work, an extra two hours’ pay – before putting on his trainers, and running where he likes. I only realised this on the day they found Sarah Everard’s body, in the woods. The day I stopped work at 3pm to walk the dog, and every womans’ eyes I met in Finsbury Park said, “I’m scared.” The day I realised that, in each of the three places I walk the dog – Alexandra Palace, the Parkland Walk and Finsbury Park – a woman has been either stabbed, raped or murdered. This fear is not an overreaction. I don’t even count the places where a man showed me and my daughter his penis at 1pm; or the place a man asked my daughter to get in his car and “help” him with a mechanical problem; or the place where a man chased my daughter down the street shouting “Dirty c***! Whore!” at 11am. There’s only so much time to be scared. You have to pick and choose your bad memories.

“There are places where it is unsafe for men to run! There are men who feel scared!” some men will say. And that is, of course, true. But it’s not most men.

Nearly every woman is scared. Nearly every woman puts herself under curfew.

Here’s the problem with this curfew: it’s not a plan. There’s no strategy. There’s no exit point. “Police have advised women not to go out on their own after dark.” How long for? For… ever. We’re just presuming it will go on like this… for ever. It’s a silent, unwritten law for women.

Here’s a proposal: we change things. We try a reversal. Many have suggested a legally enforceable curfew for men. No men allowed out after dark. Only women on the streets – to run, walk. Stroll through the park. Walk to a friends’ house, without taking their life into their hands. Reclaim the streets, again. Permanently.

I suggest it on Twitter. The outrage from men is, understandably, palpable. “But we have done nothing wrong! This is unfair! Why should good men, who have done nothing bad, be punished?”

But please let me say all this back to you: currently, women have to stay at home – but women have done nothing wrong. It is unfair for women. Why should good women, who have done nothing wrong, be punished? After all, the worst thing about a legal curfew for men is that, if you break it, you would be arrested. The worst thing that happens to women when they break their informal curfew is: they die.

Good men are angry that they are being punished for the crimes of bad men. Disproportionately angry, I would say: dispiritingly, #notallmen trended higher than #saraheverard the day after her body was found. Men would rather defend their sex – most of us aren’t rapists, or murderers! Do not slander us! – than mourn mine. But, if you are a good man – if you want to publicly declare you are a good man, who would never hurt a woman, who is on women’s side – then: how about you put a bit of skin in the game? Currently, you have no skin in this game, whereas women stake everything, every day. Good men need to feel as impassioned – as desperate – as women to change things, and make the world safer. Walk in our shoes – by sitting in your house, at night. Actually feel what we feel. Because just saying, “I am a good man. I support women. I am horrified by all this,” does nothing. Women stay at home, scared. Men carry on, as normal.

Here’s a story that abuts into this: in my social circle, there is a man with a long history of being physically and emotionally abusive to women. He’s left scars on skin; the police have been called out. On social media, I see many of my male friends are still friends with him. Male who regularly post about feminism, and believing women, and abhorring violent men.

A friend of mine contacts one of them, politely: do you know about his history? Do you know the women – women you know – who have been hurt and terrified by this man? Perhaps you might want to do the very mildest thing, and unfollow him. Unfriend him. Make one tiny, starting gesture, that indicates good men will not be friends with bad men.

The reply is long and rambling and disconcertingly comfortable: yes, he has heard about this man’s reputation. Should he shun him? Maybe. Will he? No. He will not unfriend him. Things will remain the same.

I’m going to say something terribly simple and terribly true: women alone can’t stop men raping, hurting, scaring and killing other women. We need men – these #notallmen, these good men – to help us. Help us. YOU KNOW THESE MEN. You know their edgy jokes, their drunken darknesses, their increasingly long lists of “crazy ex-girlfriends” who weren’t “crazy” before they knew this guy, but who all, oddly, seem to have gone crazy after they met him.

Men don’t go from “good” to “abusive” overnight – they will have spent years, decades, giving off warning signs, saying weird things, making women sad in front of you, at that party, in the pub. There is work you can do here. Women talk to other women about the bad men they know all the time. What looks like “gossip” is actually survival. Join us in this. Share your information.

Tell your “creepy”, “odd” mate his behaviour is unacceptable. Discuss it within your male friendship group. Saying, “That’s not cool, dude,” the first time someone catcalls, may well mean it’s also the last time he catcalls. Whole lifetimes of behaviours only grow when they’re tolerated, or shrugged off, or laughed over. Men grow up in a climate of other men. You can change that climate.

What will make men want to do the work, and police other men like this? Maybe it will take a curfew. Maybe then, men will finally feel the urgency women have. Men will want a proper strategy. Men will have skin in the game.

#Notallmen are rapists, abusers, street harrassers or murderers – this is true. But almost all men know someone who is. Or will be. Someone not quite right. Someone “handsy”, or “bad when he’s drunk.” You can talk to them. You can shun them. You can stop them.

All women can do is wait at home, every night, until you do. There is no other exit plan.

rjsterry

Thanks, KG. It is good.

Pross

OK I got that a single woman at 11pm might be unusual and whilst I don't know London at night other right in the centre but this felt a bit like hyperbole based on my experiences of nights out anywhere I've been or just driving around at that time

"And as we kept driving – driving past young men laughing, messing about with friends, getting on with their Friday nights; men, only men – I realised, for the first time, what we were driving through: a curfew. Women curfewing themselves."

No woman in groups? No women with men? Has anyone been out around their local area on a Friday night and not seen any women at all?

I get their point, it's bad and woman can't just go out and behave normally but I don't see the point of stretching the point like that. I'd also take issue with this:

#Notallmen are rapists, abusers, street harrassers or murderers – this is true. But almost all men know someone who is. Or will be. Someone not quite right. Someone “handsy”, or “bad when he’s drunk.”

I genuinely can't think of someone I know well enough to talk to, shun etc. who behaves like that.

kingstongraham

Yes, I replaced it in my mind with 'women alone', so whatever makes sense to you. The point is still valid.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Yes, I replaced it in my mind with 'women alone', so whatever makes sense to you. The point is still valid.

Yes, the point is valid but I don't think expressing it like that helps the issue. I carried on reading it as you'd taken the trouble to post it but I suspect that if I had just been reading it in a paper I would have skipped when I got to that bit.

DeVlaeminck

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

rick_chasey

Story in the mirror, a woman got fined for “wasting police time” reporting her stalker to the police 5 times.

Said stalker has since killed her.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenager-fined-reporting-stalker-police-23775721

secretsam

david37 said:

safer for everyone Graham.

this overly virtuous self flagellation by the usual suspects is hilarious.

"The usual suspects" is pretty much everyone but you.

shirley_basso

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.

To turn it around:

Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?

Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).

Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.

YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

On your first paragraph, I think it's likely that the kind of people who act this way towards women are at least smart enough to conceal what they do from friends and family.

blazing_saddles

Is it appropriate to ask how many supporting this article would also advocate her solution of a night time curfew on men ?

I ask as I am interested as to how folks see this working.

Pross

rjsterry said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

On your first paragraph, I think it's likely that the kind of people who act this way towards women are at least smart enough to conceal what they do from friends and family.

Which makes her point that most men know someone like that somewhat moot. It's hard to have a word with someone if you don't know their real persona. It seems like maybe women are sharing their experiences of some men with each other and assuming that everyone is aware that is how they behave whereas in reality it is a 'behind closed doors' sort of thing and they only know because they've had the misfortune of experiencing the behaviour.

DeVlaeminck

shirley_basso said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.

To turn it around:

Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?

Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).

Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.

YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.

Yes of course there's absolutely nothing in what I wrote that would disagree with you there.

If you think I'm missing the point I'd be grateful if you can point out exactly what you disagree with as you've not done so so I can't really offer a response.

rick_chasey

blazing_saddles said:

Is it appropriate to ask how many supporting this article would also advocate her solution of a night time curfew on men ?

I ask as I am interested as to how folks see this working.

No, but it's a helpful way to visualise how some women feel about walking around at night.

shirley_basso

DeVlaeminck said:

shirley_basso said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.

To turn it around:

Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?

Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).

Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.

YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.

Yes of course there's absolutely nothing in what I wrote that would disagree with you there.

If you think I'm missing the point I'd be grateful if you can point out exactly what you disagree with as you've not done so so I can't really offer a response.

Sorry i probably got the wrong end of the stick

rjsterry

blazing_saddles said:

Is it appropriate to ask how many supporting this article would also advocate her solution of a night time curfew on men ?

I ask as I am interested as to how folks see this working.

I think the point is if you think that's unreasonable - and it is - why is it OK to accept something not too dissimilar for the other half of the population?

john80

shirley_basso said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.

To turn it around:

Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?

Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).

Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.

YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.

The problem you have with your argument is that these serious attacks on both men and women are rare. So if you know a 100 people that you went to Uni with and they all spent their time getting wasted and roaming the streets with scant regards to their surrounding then unless they act deliberately aggressively to others they are likely to never be assaulted or raped just on the numbers alone. This is why I think the issue is more about the fear of this than the reality. Around 700 homicides happened up to March of 2020 and about 1700 people died in 2019 in RTA's. You should be over twice as worried of being killed in your car or by a car than you are of being murdered and yet many women get in cars and allow themselves to be driven by men.

So in summary my view is that in a normal part of Britain women should not be that concerned about being killed or raped by a stranger and be more concerned by being harmed by those they know as this is where the real danger is statistically. Men should definitely be nipping in the bud when they can safely the cat calling and other behaviors that impact women's day to day lives but so do women. If 20 women on a train stood up to that clown hassling a women, videoed him and then worked together to report these instances to the police this it would seem to me is a better use of their time than breaking covid rules with their vigils.

Everyone is responsible for the environment around them not just men when it is clearly a minority that are hassling women.

seanoconn

rick_chasey said:

blazing_saddles said:

Is it appropriate to ask how many supporting this article would also advocate her solution of a night time curfew on men ?

I ask as I am interested as to how folks see this working.

No, but it's a helpful way to visualise how some women feel about walking around at night.

Risk management.

I’m 6ft reasonably strong and fit. I feel confident that I wouldn’t be easy prey but I also manage/reduce risk by avoiding certain quiet areas at night. When my circumstances change due to ill health/age, I’ll modify my behaviour to further reduce the risk of being a target.

shirley_basso

john80 said:

shirley_basso said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.

The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.

It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.

I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.

To turn it around:

Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?

Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).

Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.

YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.

The problem you have with your argument is that these serious attacks on both men and women are rare. So if you know a 100 people that you went to Uni with and they all spent their time getting wasted and roaming the streets with scant regards to their surrounding then unless they act deliberately aggressively to others they are likely to never be assaulted or raped just on the numbers alone. This is why I think the issue is more about the fear of this than the reality. Around 700 homicides happened up to March of 2020 and about 1700 people died in 2019 in RTA's. You should be over twice as worried of being killed in your car or by a car than you are of being murdered and yet many women get in cars and allow themselves to be driven by men.

So in summary my view is that in a normal part of Britain women should not be that concerned about being killed or raped by a stranger and be more concerned by being harmed by those they know as this is where the real danger is statistically. Men should definitely be nipping in the bud when they can safely the cat calling and other behaviors that impact women's day to day lives but so do women. If 20 women on a train stood up to that clown hassling a women, videoed him and then worked together to report these instances to the police this it would seem to me is a better use of their time than breaking covid rules with their vigils.

Everyone is responsible for the environment around them not just men when it is clearly a minority that are hassling women.

You're missing the point.

Women are attacked and harrassed wherever they go - in the workplace, nightclubs, shops, the street, taxis etc. Almost every single woman you have ever met has been verbally or physically assaulted. They also rarely report the cases as there's relatively little than can be done (bad) or worse - have started to accept it as a fact of life.

Just because a woman isn't raped or murdered - doesn't mean they haven't been chased, attacked, sworn at, grabbed and assaulted. Women are ALWAYS having to think about 'what if' - and have started to view every single man as a possible threat.

Is that fair / right / equal?

I find your inability to see this from someone elses viewpoint quite odd.

As for Seanoconn's comment - what can you say? Pretty selfish outlook. Aren't we all glad you haven't been grabbed by the pussy, sworn at and chased down the street in broad daylight by by some aggressive stranger.

Or to both of you - try this angle - let's say that a woman saw you and immediately was terrified of you - regardless if you were benign or wanted to help. She immediately started putting her keys between her knuckles to use as a weapon, started looking to escape routes etc etc. Is there no part of you that would want to change how half the population potenially saw you?