Women's safety

shirley_basso

The fact that women have to put up with this sort of behaviour is a 'part of life' is pretty sickening.

In a non wierd way, I have a good looking sister and I dread to think of what she's been subjected to.

My LinkedIn feed has been full of extremely senior, sensible, well qualified women who have have their private parts prodded "hard enough to penetrate" up their skirts while in bars - almost every one (who has posted something) has posted something of that nature.

I don't know what I can do, but at the extreme end, half the population feel like they are imprisioned out of fear of the other half - and every single one has an anecdote to prove it.

seanoconn

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t crap at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

pinkbikini

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

pinkbikini

I’m also tired of asking my daughter when she gets home “How was your run” and getting “Not great, some guy on a moped followed me”, “A man tried to stop me”, “ A group of boys shouted horrible comments at me” , etc.

seanoconn

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

That’s parenting, of course you would have those conversations with your kids and it starts long before they’re 14.

No need for the sweeping generalisation.

david37

so I just want a bit of a sanity check,

as a man im widely feared by women who are right to fear me, as a white man I must accept that anything ive earned is on the back of black slaves and all black people (especially women I presume) should have advanced career opportunities compared to myself.

As a straight man I should regularly celebrate diversity and the LGTRANS CD community

I should ignore the propensity for violence in the muslim community toward non believers because that would make me a racist bigoted gammon white man who's never had to work for anything in his life.

Now im not saying that women don't have to put up with some crap but so do blokes, and im not saying that that makes it ok but these protest groups are getting to the point where the handwringing self flagellation is getting a bit much.

As for walking on Clapham Common at night and being safe, I suspect that's an issue for men as much as women.

the murder rate for men in the uk in 2019 was 11 in a million, women it was 8 in a million. the overall murder rate is down by 10% on previous years and once the murder rate is adjusted to get rid of young men killing each other cause they're tossers then the rate is roughly equal.

The domestic violence figures are grim reading but its worth noting the relatively high amount of abuse inflicted on men. Whats also worth noting is that the true numbers are even higher due to the taboo nature of the subject, the fact that the police and courts are unlikely to take it as seriously as reported from a woman etc etc.

The whole victim celebrity thing is getting a bit much and the merkin epitomises it. Whining victim hood. her life must be terribly stressful.

Scum bags are scum bags, and they will always be scum bags and most of them either die young if we're lucky or become mellowed or infirm in middle age and stop with the scumbag behaviour.

Slap the scumbags don't demand all the decent people are castigated in a one size fits all.

david37

as for sexual harassment, when I was younger I used to get it all day long at work, comments, unrequested flirting, touching from the older women (30's and 40's)
I used to avoid one or two of them. its part of life for men and women. Unless you're pug ugly or dull of course. then I suppose no one would react.

pinkbikini

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

That’s parenting, of course you would have those conversations with your kids and it starts long before they’re 14.

No need for the sweeping generalisation.

Sorry, not a personal attack, but there are obviously a lot of people who don’t think they need to adapt their behaviour at all. They’re perfect. No need to change anything, nothing to see here. And so it goes on.

You must see this is how it is propagated? There is every need for the sweeping generalisation. The situation is getting worse.

pblakeney

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

There is a failure of logic in blaming absent fathers in any case.

pinkbikini

pblakeney said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

There is a failure of logic in blaming absent fathers in any case.

Not if you’re talking about raising children.

john80

Maybe father's abandonment is a bit more involved than they just could not be arsed sticking around.

pblakeney

pinkbikini said:

pblakeney said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

There is a failure of logic in blaming absent fathers in any case.

Not if you’re talking about raising children.

Who takes over in the case of an absent father? The mother. Surely a more feminine education would lead to better attitudes to females.

I'm not blaming mothers, just pointing out the flaw in the logic.

david37

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

That’s parenting, of course you would have those conversations with your kids and it starts long before they’re 14.

No need for the sweeping generalisation.

Sorry, not a personal attack, but there are obviously a lot of people who don’t think they need to adapt their behaviour at all. They’re perfect. No need to change anything, nothing to see here. And so it goes on.

You must see this is how it is propagated? There is every need for the sweeping generalisation. The situation is getting worse.

I don't need to adapt my behaviour and you saying I do is offensive and typical of the crass handwringing and victim worshipping mentality that circulates around these issues.

rick_chasey

I feel it's worthwhile saying in every discussion of a 'minority' or anything that is to do with people where an identify is involved, that *just because structural inequality exists does not mean people who benefit from said inequality can't live miserable, downtrodden lives*.

It's not all about you. A discussion on the general inequality in a society is not a direct take on your own life. Just because you feel like you've not personally feel like you've benefited, doesn't mean it isn't true collectively.

Pross

Good to see there was some active moderation on here.

Jezyboy

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

That’s parenting, of course you would have those conversations with your kids and it starts long before they’re 14.

No need for the sweeping generalisation.

Sorry, not a personal attack, but there are obviously a lot of people who don’t think they need to adapt their behaviour at all. They’re perfect. No need to change anything, nothing to see here. And so it goes on.

You must see this is how it is propagated? There is every need for the sweeping generalisation. The situation is getting worse.

Is the situation actually getting worse? Or is the line of what is acceptable and what is not going down faster than behaviour is getting better.

Aside from the random person following, many of the examples in that video would have been considered extremely low level a few years back. That isn't to say that the cumulative impact isn't really crappy.

pinkbikini

Jezyboy said:

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

seanoconn said:

pinkbikini said:

Men are cr@p at bringing up boys. Many don't stick around at all. Many of those that do stick it inflict outdated behavioural views on their sons. Those that don't do that try to be their son's mate. Those that don't do that are terribly bad at talking about emotions. The list goes on. Fathers need to be fathers and talk to their sons to ensure they don't behave like creeps (or worse).

I find the behaviour on here pretty grim sometimes, and this is actually one of the more thoughtful areas of the internet.

Men in general aren’t censored at raising boys. Most do stick around and most teach their boys to be decent and respectful.

Some don’t.

I’m definitely in the minority of my friends who have had more than a single conversation with their sons regarding behaviour towards girls, how to behave if you fancy someone, what to do if you’re with a group of boys behaving inappropriately, etc.

If you’ve not had more than a few conversations by the time they’re about 14 then you’re not doing a good job IMO, no matter what else you’re doing.

Maybe it’s a reasonably affluent middle-class emotionally repressed circle I move in though - who knows!

That’s parenting, of course you would have those conversations with your kids and it starts long before they’re 14.

No need for the sweeping generalisation.

Sorry, not a personal attack, but there are obviously a lot of people who don’t think they need to adapt their behaviour at all. They’re perfect. No need to change anything, nothing to see here. And so it goes on.

You must see this is how it is propagated? There is every need for the sweeping generalisation. The situation is getting worse.

Is the situation actually getting worse? Or is the line of what is acceptable and what is not going down faster than behaviour is getting better.

Aside from the random person following, many of the examples in that video would have been considered extremely low level a few years back. That isn't to say that the cumulative impact isn't really crappy.

Based on many things that I’ve seen and heard (directly and indirectly through my kids, involvement with schools, youth sports groups, etc) I’d say the situation is worse than when I was young.

I’ll give up on this now. It’s the usual rendition (if you think there’s any problem) - ‘something has to change, but I won’t be changing’.

BTW, apols if anyone took this too personally. Wasn’t my intention.

shortfall

Has a post by David been removed?

DeVlaeminck

It's a complicated issue and there will be disagreement about how things like cat calling, domestic violence, sexual assault by a stranger and so on are related.

I would say that video is shocking. The sheer number of catcalls, the persistence of one or two and the walking alongside which is intimidating behaviour. It's hard not to think that there is a connection between that and even more serious behaviour up to sexual assault.

I don't know if it's getting worse - I'm not really well placed to judge women's experiences over the last several decades but even if it's just a case of more people calling it out that doesn't make it less of an issue.

elbowloh

My boy isn't 2 until next month, so certainly not ready for conversation, which i'm sure we will have at some point. However, i'm sure my son will pick earlier and be more imprinted by how he sees my own behaviour to women.

ddraver

If he walks past his Dora The Explorer doll and goes, "Daaammmnnn girl, b1tch be looking fine!" you'll know there is work to do there....

rick_chasey

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

rick_chasey

Eg. https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/20531709#Comment_20531709

david37

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Do you believe that there aren't similar threads about men in tight shorts that are predominately commented on by women?

Perhaps the answer is to de program nature.

I seem to remember Lynfords lunchbox being quite a hit with the ladies. (and some of the men)

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

I feel it's worthwhile saying in every discussion of a 'minority' or anything that is to do with people where an identify is involved, that *just because structural inequality exists does not mean people who benefit from said inequality can't live miserable, downtrodden lives*.

It's not all about you. A discussion on the general inequality in a society is not a direct take on your own life. Just because you feel like you've not personally feel like you've benefited, doesn't mean it isn't true collectively.

People generally discuss their own lives though which is why a couple of homeless chaps sitting on the street don't tend to worry too much about the glass ceiling that may affect some women. They may not even care when street violence and harassment becomes a national discussion, because it is part of their lives and nothing is done about it.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

probably a stronger correlation between the lack of female posters. I don't agree that those posters are more likely to harass women on the street but they are part of the background noise that adds to the problem in much the same way Pirelli calendars did in garages

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.