Women's safety

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

Not necessarily true. At least it wasn't a couple of decades ago.
Long time since I ventured into a nightclub. As I said upthread, I have no solution.

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

Not necessarily true. At least it wasn't a couple of decades ago.
Long time since I ventured into a nightclub. As I said upthread, I have no solution.

I am guessing that Rick has never worked on a factory floor with a load of middle aged women.

You can't have one rule for one and another for others

yorkshireraw

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Do you believe that there aren't similar threads about men in tight shorts that are predominately commented on by women?

Perhaps the answer is to de program nature.

I seem to remember Lynfords lunchbox being quite a hit with the ladies. (and some of the men)

Linford.

As a big athletics fan at the time I don't recall too many women commenting on it - the whole thing was a lazy racist trope trotted out by our scummy tabloids, as part of their long running campaign to malign prominent black brits at the time (and still to this day...) - think of the sh1te John Barnes used to get as well.

Alan Wells was actually the first UK sprinter to use Lycra shorts. Funny how no-one made any lunchbox references when he did it. But then he was white.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

Not necessarily true. At least it wasn't a couple of decades ago.
Long time since I ventured into a nightclub. As I said upthread, I have no solution.

I am guessing that Rick has never worked on a factory floor with a load of middle aged women.

You can't have one rule for one and another for others

Or an office even, as a shy 18/19 year old I experienced it quite a lot. That said I think the big difference is that despite getting a bit embarassed by it at times I certainly never felt threatened by it, I understood it for the teasing it was - I suspect the experience for a teenage girl getting similar comments in an office of middle aged men would be a worse experience and could easily lead to them not wanting to go to work in the morning.

rjsterry

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

I think the absolute refusal to compromise even something as trivial as posting pictures on a forum, just because "I'm not one of them" says a lot. As a society we're content to insist that women significantly modify their behaviour to avoid this group of men, but if anyone suggests that maybe you should even do as little as limit your 'appreciation' to outside the workplace and it's too much of an imposition on 'good people'.

These men are obviously masters of disguise because at the same time that nearly all women have encountered them to some degree or another, no men seem to have seen hide nor hair of them. Either these 'bad people' are all working 100hour weeks at it, or some guys aren't being entirely honest.

And for those who feel they are being unfairly tarred with the same brush, maybe that is motivation to do something about it, rather than dismissing it as someone else's problem.

elbowloh

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

Not necessarily true. At least it wasn't a couple of decades ago.
Long time since I ventured into a nightclub. As I said upthread, I have no solution.

I am guessing that Rick has never worked on a factory floor with a load of middle aged women.

You can't have one rule for one and another for others

Or an office even, as a shy 18/19 year old I experienced it quite a lot. That said I think the big difference is that despite getting a bit embarassed by it at times I certainly never felt threatened by it, I understood it for the teasing it was - I suspect the experience for a teenage girl getting similar comments in an office of middle aged men would be a worse experience and could easily lead to them not wanting to go to work in the morning.

Only 5 years ago or so, i got comments from the lady exec PAs (in a very male dominated company and industry) about how much they'd like to see me dancing semi-naked on a desk....

blazing_saddles

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

Not necessarily true. At least it wasn't a couple of decades ago.
Long time since I ventured into a nightclub. As I said upthread, I have no solution.

I am guessing that Rick has never worked on a factory floor with a load of middle aged women.

You can't have one rule for one and another for others

Or an office even, as a shy 18/19 year old I experienced it quite a lot. That said I think the big difference is that despite getting a bit embarassed by it at times I certainly never felt threatened by it, I understood it for the teasing it was - I suspect the experience for a teenage girl getting similar comments in an office of middle aged men would be a worse experience and could easily lead to them not wanting to go to work in the morning.

I've had exactly the same experience, several times, in different work environments.
When I was the age you mention, it was an almost daily routine. Some of it went well beyond just comments.
Obviously personal experience, or the lack of it, will colour the individual's view.
Mine is that this issue isn't quite as gender specific as some on here believe.

Jezyboy

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

pblakeney

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

Pross

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

There does seem to me an assumption (probably due to men feeling it is unmanly to say otherwise) in the current debate that men don't also feel unsafe walking the streets at times though. I'm not suggesting that it's anywhere near as big an issue for men but the narrative sometimes feels like men feel free to roam wherever they want whilst women are cowering in fear of leaving their home. I've certainly made detours when out walking to avoid groups in the street due to a perceived risk.

rick_chasey

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

There does seem to me an assumption (probably due to men feeling it is unmanly to say otherwise) in the current debate that men don't also feel unsafe walking the streets at times though. I'm not suggesting that it's anywhere near as big an issue for men but the narrative sometimes feels like men feel free to roam wherever they want whilst women are cowering in fear of leaving their home. I've certainly made detours when out walking to avoid groups in the street due to a perceived risk.

Sure, but that isn't the topic.

"it's bad for me too" isn't really the point. No-one is denying that it's not a problem elsewhere, but it's vastly vastly men abusing women on this, and it's an issue where gender is at play, like it or not.

Some people here have discussed 'playing the victim'...i see it really the other way - men like to play the victim to draw the attention away from the problem.

ballysmate

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

There does seem to me an assumption (probably due to men feeling it is unmanly to say otherwise) in the current debate that men don't also feel unsafe walking the streets at times though. I'm not suggesting that it's anywhere near as big an issue for men but the narrative sometimes feels like men feel free to roam wherever they want whilst women are cowering in fear of leaving their home. I've certainly made detours when out walking to avoid groups in the street due to a perceived risk.

Rick will be calling you a f*cking pansy soon. Well he would if you were a woman.

https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13105096/seemingly-trivial-things-that-intrigue-you/p131

Btw just noticed his post got flagged. It wassname that flagged it.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

It is about men's actions though. Listening to the current debate men should simply stay home. No other practical solution has been put forward, however ridiculous.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

It is about men's actions though. Listening to the current debate men should simply stay home. No other practical solution has been put forward, however ridiculous.

No-one here is suggesting that?

I'm suggesting that men should call each other out more, and need more culture around enforcement in places where you can - ejecting men who grope women from bars etc.

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

It is, but it is my conclusion from what has been on TV and social media over the past week, and I only see the TV when I pop down from the "office" to go to the kitchen.
All finger pointing and no solutions.

Rick's solutions are practical but have been in place for a long time and anecdotally things have improved massively on that front in the past decades. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this forum is more civilised than most other forms.

Ultimately my opinion is that we are on the right road, it just isn't moving quick enough and there needs to be more emphasis on how these are bad people and not targeting men in general with the blame culture.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

It is, but it is my conclusion from what has been on TV and social media over the past week, and I only see the TV when I pop down from the "office" to go to the kitchen.
All finger pointing and no solutions.

Rick's solutions are practical but have been in place for a long time and anecdotally things have improved massively on that front in the past decades. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this forum is more civilised than most other forms.

Ultimately my opinion is that we are on the right road, it just isn't moving quick enough and there needs to be more emphasis on how these are bad people and not targeting men in general with the blame culture.

I would be very surprised if you've called it out every time you've seen it.

I certainly haven't, and I am very gobby and very quick to call strangers out. Collectively we all need to call it out more and support women too who call it out.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

It is, but it is my conclusion from what has been on TV and social media over the past week, and I only see the TV when I pop down from the "office" to go to the kitchen.
All finger pointing and no solutions.

Rick's solutions are practical but have been in place for a long time and anecdotally things have improved massively on that front in the past decades. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this forum is more civilised than most other forms.

Ultimately my opinion is that we are on the right road, it just isn't moving quick enough and there needs to be more emphasis on how these are bad people and not targeting men in general with the blame culture.

I would be very surprised if you've called it out every time you've seen it.

I certainly haven't, and I am very gobby and very quick to call strangers out. Collectively we all need to call it out more and support women too who call it out.

Last time I called it out was a man beating a woman. She turned on me and I was then facing up to the pair of them. I now stay away. Not good, but what else can you do when faced with that possibility?

DeVlaeminck

It's important to acknowledge that men do suffer domestic abuse, men do get raped and it is every bit as bad for them as for the women it happens to.

That said it's probably not something that affects you unless you've actually suffered it. I don't modify my behaviour to avoid getting attacked - I'd guess most women do. Ok I do modify it a bit - I wouldn't walk around some estates in London at night - but the extent to which I do is far less than most women.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

It is about men's actions though. Listening to the current debate men should simply stay home. No other practical solution has been put forward, however ridiculous.

No-one here is suggesting that?

I'm suggesting that men should call each other out more, and need more culture around enforcement in places where you can - ejecting men who grope women from bars etc.

Sure and that's fairly easily done when it is someone you know or possibly one on one but would you genuinely call out a bunch of guys in the street harassing a woman passing by? I'm not convinced I'm brave enough to do that. I suspect that if a woman mentioned being groped to the door staff of a well run pub or club then they would at least keep an eye on the situation if not have a quiet word but it's difficult for it to be proved.

That's the problem with a lot of the more serious offences too, it is almost impossible to prove an assault took place unless there's obvious injuries so it is going to be he said, she said. The police and CPS get a lot of stick for that but they really are in a difficult if not impossible position in a lot of situations (although there should at least be confidence that a report will be investigated fully).

I don't have any answers unfortunately.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

It is, but it is my conclusion from what has been on TV and social media over the past week, and I only see the TV when I pop down from the "office" to go to the kitchen.
All finger pointing and no solutions.

Rick's solutions are practical but have been in place for a long time and anecdotally things have improved massively on that front in the past decades. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this forum is more civilised than most other forms.

Ultimately my opinion is that we are on the right road, it just isn't moving quick enough and there needs to be more emphasis on how these are bad people and not targeting men in general with the blame culture.

I would be very surprised if you've called it out every time you've seen it.

I certainly haven't, and I am very gobby and very quick to call strangers out. Collectively we all need to call it out more and support women too who call it out.

Last time I called it out was a man beating a woman. She turned on me and I was then facing up to the pair of them. I now stay away. Not good, but what else can you do when faced with that possibility?

Quite - it's not easy.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

Bloody hell that's a bad take.

It is, but it is my conclusion from what has been on TV and social media over the past week, and I only see the TV when I pop down from the "office" to go to the kitchen.
All finger pointing and no solutions.

Rick's solutions are practical but have been in place for a long time and anecdotally things have improved massively on that front in the past decades. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this forum is more civilised than most other forms.

Ultimately my opinion is that we are on the right road, it just isn't moving quick enough and there needs to be more emphasis on how these are bad people and not targeting men in general with the blame culture.

I would be very surprised if you've called it out every time you've seen it.

I certainly haven't, and I am very gobby and very quick to call strangers out. Collectively we all need to call it out more and support women too who call it out.

Last time I called it out was a man beating a woman. She turned on me and I was then facing up to the pair of them. I now stay away. Not good, but what else can you do when faced with that possibility?

Quite - it's not easy.

Which was my original post on page 1.
Think I'll revert to that. No solution, no comment.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

I do think there is an element of two wrongs not making a right with the harassment of men by women.

Quite right!
The current narrative of all women good and constantly under threat while all men are bad and constantly safe is ruining sensible debate though.

But this isn't about men's safety, is it?

It is about men's actions though. Listening to the current debate men should simply stay home. No other practical solution has been put forward, however ridiculous.

No-one here is suggesting that?

I'm suggesting that men should call each other out more, and need more culture around enforcement in places where you can - ejecting men who grope women from bars etc.

Sure and that's fairly easily done when it is someone you know or possibly one on one but would you genuinely call out a bunch of guys in the street harassing a woman passing by? I'm not convinced I'm brave enough to do that. I suspect that if a woman mentioned being groped to the door staff of a well run pub or club then they would at least keep an eye on the situation if not have a quiet word but it's difficult for it to be proved.

That's the problem with a lot of the more serious offences too, it is almost impossible to prove an assault took place unless there's obvious injuries so it is going to be he said, she said. The police and CPS get a lot of stick for that but they really are in a difficult if not impossible position in a lot of situations (although there should at least be confidence that a report will be investigated fully).

I don't have any answers unfortunately.

Bizarrely some of the few times I have seen bystanders step in have been football fans because they have a group of mates to back them up whereas a crowded tube carriage is 50 strangers you can not rely on

david37

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Well look at the big girls thread.

If that kind of chat is normalised, then it doesn't take a genius to make the leap.

Observation does not necessarily lead to action.
It is not so long ago we had the Diet Pepsi ads. I doubt women have stopped looking.

So you think there is no correlation between the kind of chat I've highlighted and those same comments being made to women in the street?

I can only speak for myself, and my answer to you is, none. Bad people are going to be bad, doesn't mean all people are, even if they appreciate the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that the 'phwoar-sharing' can provide the culture where those who are unable to stop their lusty behaviour there have their behaviour not just normalised but encouraged beyond what non-bad people will ever do.

On the other side of the coin, I've raised eyebrows when female friends, who will justifiably tut-tut about female objectification, have gone on to share male-objectification images.

Of course you can't stop the thoughts that follow our primal instincts, but you can use your intellect to choose how you share the thoughts. If you can't use your intellect to control your public behaviour, you've got a problem.

Surely you can see the difference on why it's different with men on women and women on men?

I mean, the fact women get regularly sexually harassed by men and not the other way round should go a long way to explain why it is different?

I think this is partly what that Izzy thread is about - you need to recognise to a certain extent, without using it as a stick with which to drive a bigger divide, that men and women are different and so the relationship is not going to be the same each way.

So what you're saying is its not really a problem when women do it to when men do it. is this the same warped thinking that had you saying blacks should be promoted before whites to even things up a few threads a go?

Doesn't seem like equality to me

rick_chasey

No i'm not saying that, but 90+% is men on women not the other way around, so let's focus on that first.

david37

DeVlaeminck said:

It's important to acknowledge that men do suffer domestic abuse, men do get raped and it is every bit as bad for them as for the women it happens to.

That said it's probably not something that affects you unless you've actually suffered it. I don't modify my behaviour to avoid getting attacked - I'd guess most women do. Ok I do modify it a bit - I wouldn't walk around some estates in London at night - but the extent to which I do is far less than most women.

what you're describing is perception of danger or threat. not necessarily the increased prevalence or potential of danger

Perhaps the answer is for people to toughen up

DeVlaeminck

You say that but women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted or raped than men despite taking far more precautions than men do.

DeVlaeminck

Similarly with domestic abuse I know more women that have suffered it - though I do know one guy - and he was a former marine and decent boxer so I know it can happen to physically tough men.