Women's safety
Comments
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Hides behind a keyboard.tailwindhome said:
What precautions do you take in your day to day life to avoid being raped or sexually assaulted?david37 said:DeVlaeminck said:It's important to acknowledge that men do suffer domestic abuse, men do get raped and it is every bit as bad for them as for the women it happens to.
That said it's probably not something that affects you unless you've actually suffered it. I don't modify my behaviour to avoid getting attacked - I'd guess most women do. Ok I do modify it a bit - I wouldn't walk around some estates in London at night - but the extent to which I do is far less than most women.
what you're describing is perception of danger or threat. not necessarily the increased prevalence or potential of danger
Perhaps the answer is for people to toughen up0 -
This is a good listen for anyone inclined to consider solutions. It’s half an hour though.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2021/mar/24/men-what-can-you-do-to-help-fight-misogyny-podcast
Top line summary - small measures matter. Making a small change better than no change at all. Assuming you’re not an active participant in perpetuating misogyny, then just about the worst thing you can do is ignore the issues.
It’s not an earth-shattering idea that one of the most important aspects is education and open conversation at a young age.0 -
It's weird what one remembers, but I can still recall a participant in some 1970's programme (maybe 'Mr & Mrs') who, when asked what she did, said "I'm just a housewife".0
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And when someone who looks a bit like the same guy is given a kicking by mistake?john80 said:
Not really if you ignore the stuff with no evidence. Posting a video of a guy following a woman and shouting stuff at her is a difficult one to explain away.yorkshireraw said:
The 'everyday' incidents that many women never even mention because they're so common definitely need highlighting to show the scale of the problem, and also highlight what is and isn't acceptable.john80 said:
You can't solve this through criminal punishment and the police. For one they struggle to deal with serious crime so they don't have the resources to do this and never will and you and others see there is a balance between what your taxes can pay for and the freedoms you would like to have. For second when you start to put the low level stuff in front of a jury they won't convict as it is a jury of society filled with their inherent bias.shirley_basso said:
I get it and thank you for your comments. I am not in the business of self flagellating either - I don't blame myself for how women are treated or feel - but this incident has raised awareness of it. I also have no solutions. I am just trying to ask you to see it from a womens point of view, how horrific it is, and ask yourself - how did it get to this?john80 said:
Look I am not trying to antagonise you here but you must see that there is a threshold issue here. How many boys got into a fight at school as an experience. This is an assault and therefore I would hazard a guess that most men that you speak to have been assaulted. If we brought in verbal abuse we would find that it must be easily at 100% of males have been verbally abused. So when you say that every woman you have ever met has been verbally or physically assaulted it is a very low bar and is not helpful to the discussion.shirley_basso said:
You're missing the point.john80 said:
The problem you have with your argument is that these serious attacks on both men and women are rare. So if you know a 100 people that you went to Uni with and they all spent their time getting wasted and roaming the streets with scant regards to their surrounding then unless they act deliberately aggressively to others they are likely to never be assaulted or raped just on the numbers alone. This is why I think the issue is more about the fear of this than the reality. Around 700 homicides happened up to March of 2020 and about 1700 people died in 2019 in RTA's. You should be over twice as worried of being killed in your car or by a car than you are of being murdered and yet many women get in cars and allow themselves to be driven by men.shirley_basso said:
I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.DeVlaeminck said:I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.
The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.
It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.
To turn it around:
Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?
Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).
Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.
YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.
So in summary my view is that in a normal part of Britain women should not be that concerned about being killed or raped by a stranger and be more concerned by being harmed by those they know as this is where the real danger is statistically. Men should definitely be nipping in the bud when they can safely the cat calling and other behaviors that impact women's day to day lives but so do women. If 20 women on a train stood up to that clown hassling a women, videoed him and then worked together to report these instances to the police this it would seem to me is a better use of their time than breaking covid rules with their vigils.
Everyone is responsible for the environment around them not just men when it is clearly a minority that are hassling women.
Women are attacked and harrassed wherever they go - in the workplace, nightclubs, shops, the street, taxis etc. Almost every single woman you have ever met has been verbally or physically assaulted. They also rarely report the cases as there's relatively little than can be done (bad) or worse - have started to accept it as a fact of life.
Just because a woman isn't raped or murdered - doesn't mean they haven't been chased, attacked, sworn at, grabbed and assaulted. Women are ALWAYS having to think about 'what if' - and have started to view every single man as a possible threat.
Is that fair / right / equal?
I find your inability to see this from someone elses viewpoint quite odd.
As for Seanoconn's comment - what can you say? Pretty selfish outlook. Aren't we all glad you haven't been grabbed by the censored , sworn at and chased down the street in broad daylight by by some aggressive stranger.
Or to both of you - try this angle - let's say that a woman saw you and immediately was terrified of you - regardless if you were benign or wanted to help. She immediately started putting her keys between her knuckles to use as a weapon, started looking to escape routes etc etc. Is there no part of you that would want to change how half the population potenially saw you?
As for your last paragraph when I go about my daily business and I doubt many if any women are scared of me. So what do you want me to change when I get in my car to go to an engineering office everyday or go to the shops in my middle aged clothes. You are starting to get into the fever pitch where what are we to do as males. It is funny that when I was in school the girls invariably fancied the taller and stronger than average classmate who was beating up the geeky nerd. Surely if they are all bricking themselves they would be chasing the non threatening nerd. You have literally no solutions that are credible.
The issue is massively more complicated than men are the problem hand wringing. We are walking into a ticking time bomb of negative attitudes to women simply by allowing free and easy access to porn with what is likely a glib chat in school for a couple of hours about consent. We have a more equal society for women than we have ever had yet are things improving. If we keep lowering the threshold then maybe it never will. Girls are doing better in school than boys yet we still have a relatively high number of self conscious teenage girls seemingly willing to do anything for their boyfriends. Go figure as I don't get it.
I guess I don't see it as men getting into a scuffle with each other because men can behave like prats (women fight and swear at each other just as well, if not better than men in some cases)
The point being addressed here is more like systematic downtreading of females due to their gender.
"Almost very woman has been sexually assualted in their life by a grown man who has acted like that because he knows he can get away with it"
- this could be from a sly grope on a packed train or taking upskirting photos through to someone pentrating a woman with his fingers into her through her pants in a nightclub - or grabbing them while they walk alone, or trapping them and making threatening remarks. (all of which have appeared on my LinkedIn feed)
Yes I am sure it happens the other way around but come on, do you really think it's quite as widespread?
Likewise I am not trying to antagonise you - but I am surprised you can't see this for what it is. This isn't "part of growing up" (your schoolboy analogy) or "boys being boys" (or girls being girls) - your one about people generally fighting.
I want to live in a fair and balanced society and therefore I believe the solution is based in challenging cultural norms and education. For sure enforce the example of a women getting penetrated by a man in a nightclub as this is a serious sexual assault but expecting the lower level stuff to be sorted by the criminal justice system is a fools errand that won't resolve the issue facing women.
If women banded together and started posting up the censored they are dealing with and identifying the individuals locally a lot of this stuff would start to come down. When that wolf whistling builder has got his mug on the local facebook page he might think twice. We have never had a better technological edge to hold people accountable for their actions. I don't get why it is not used more. In my local area people who don't pick up their dog poo are being named and shamed on the local Facebook page and guess what they rarely get caught twice.
The issue with posting stuff on facebook etc is it leads to vigilante action - who knows for sure whether the bloke who's been flamed on there genuinely committed what he's accused of, or is his ex just annoyed at him and using the platform to get revenge.
Look at the cases of people falsely accused of being paedophiles etc., or the case of Christopher Jefferies.
Joe Bloggs called me a fat slag last night outside the dog and duck has not got the same gravitas as a post nor is it likely to get much attention.
Or when someone posts 'That's that John Smith bloke from ABC Street, I swear it' and others take action based on that?....
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I would doubt very many of the these posts on a local page would get the vigilante action you think is a risk. On a venn diagram the people doing this mainly to Pedos at this current time are likely to be mainly those that are probably on the video harassing women if we are going for generalisations.yorkshireraw said:
And when someone who looks a bit like the same guy is given a kicking by mistake?john80 said:
Not really if you ignore the stuff with no evidence. Posting a video of a guy following a woman and shouting stuff at her is a difficult one to explain away.yorkshireraw said:
The 'everyday' incidents that many women never even mention because they're so common definitely need highlighting to show the scale of the problem, and also highlight what is and isn't acceptable.john80 said:
You can't solve this through criminal punishment and the police. For one they struggle to deal with serious crime so they don't have the resources to do this and never will and you and others see there is a balance between what your taxes can pay for and the freedoms you would like to have. For second when you start to put the low level stuff in front of a jury they won't convict as it is a jury of society filled with their inherent bias.shirley_basso said:
I get it and thank you for your comments. I am not in the business of self flagellating either - I don't blame myself for how women are treated or feel - but this incident has raised awareness of it. I also have no solutions. I am just trying to ask you to see it from a womens point of view, how horrific it is, and ask yourself - how did it get to this?john80 said:
Look I am not trying to antagonise you here but you must see that there is a threshold issue here. How many boys got into a fight at school as an experience. This is an assault and therefore I would hazard a guess that most men that you speak to have been assaulted. If we brought in verbal abuse we would find that it must be easily at 100% of males have been verbally abused. So when you say that every woman you have ever met has been verbally or physically assaulted it is a very low bar and is not helpful to the discussion.shirley_basso said:
You're missing the point.john80 said:
The problem you have with your argument is that these serious attacks on both men and women are rare. So if you know a 100 people that you went to Uni with and they all spent their time getting wasted and roaming the streets with scant regards to their surrounding then unless they act deliberately aggressively to others they are likely to never be assaulted or raped just on the numbers alone. This is why I think the issue is more about the fear of this than the reality. Around 700 homicides happened up to March of 2020 and about 1700 people died in 2019 in RTA's. You should be over twice as worried of being killed in your car or by a car than you are of being murdered and yet many women get in cars and allow themselves to be driven by men.shirley_basso said:
I can't tell if you're accidentally or deliberately missing the point.DeVlaeminck said:I can see how Caitlin Moran assumes men would know other men like the ones she describes - I admit I have in the past - but right now no I don't think I know any. In most social circles people that act in such a way would be ostracised - so if that's how they do act they hide it.
The other thing is I suspect women are no more likely to ostracise men with that kind of history than men are. As a man I don't think I'm better placed to solve the problem than she is. I'm not saying I don't have a responsibility but it's a responsibility as a person rather than as a man, a parent rather than as a father.
It's like the chivalry idea that came up earlier - not for me - in some ways the idea you should act differently towards someone just because of their sex has the same roots as this whole issue. Act decently towards everyone if you can and that includes offering protection to those who need it if you can.
To turn it around:
Why SHOULD women have to be with men or be in groups?
Men can stroll around on their own in the dark and it's fine (I have never been attacked / chased or anything - and I used to be the overly drunk reprobate who would wonder the streets wasted finding a taxi / kebab shop).
Women should be able to walk around when and where they want without being in fear.
YES there will be incidents BUT, to draw a parallel with men - it should be the exception, not the norm.
So in summary my view is that in a normal part of Britain women should not be that concerned about being killed or raped by a stranger and be more concerned by being harmed by those they know as this is where the real danger is statistically. Men should definitely be nipping in the bud when they can safely the cat calling and other behaviors that impact women's day to day lives but so do women. If 20 women on a train stood up to that clown hassling a women, videoed him and then worked together to report these instances to the police this it would seem to me is a better use of their time than breaking covid rules with their vigils.
Everyone is responsible for the environment around them not just men when it is clearly a minority that are hassling women.
Women are attacked and harrassed wherever they go - in the workplace, nightclubs, shops, the street, taxis etc. Almost every single woman you have ever met has been verbally or physically assaulted. They also rarely report the cases as there's relatively little than can be done (bad) or worse - have started to accept it as a fact of life.
Just because a woman isn't raped or murdered - doesn't mean they haven't been chased, attacked, sworn at, grabbed and assaulted. Women are ALWAYS having to think about 'what if' - and have started to view every single man as a possible threat.
Is that fair / right / equal?
I find your inability to see this from someone elses viewpoint quite odd.
As for Seanoconn's comment - what can you say? Pretty selfish outlook. Aren't we all glad you haven't been grabbed by the censored , sworn at and chased down the street in broad daylight by by some aggressive stranger.
Or to both of you - try this angle - let's say that a woman saw you and immediately was terrified of you - regardless if you were benign or wanted to help. She immediately started putting her keys between her knuckles to use as a weapon, started looking to escape routes etc etc. Is there no part of you that would want to change how half the population potenially saw you?
As for your last paragraph when I go about my daily business and I doubt many if any women are scared of me. So what do you want me to change when I get in my car to go to an engineering office everyday or go to the shops in my middle aged clothes. You are starting to get into the fever pitch where what are we to do as males. It is funny that when I was in school the girls invariably fancied the taller and stronger than average classmate who was beating up the geeky nerd. Surely if they are all bricking themselves they would be chasing the non threatening nerd. You have literally no solutions that are credible.
The issue is massively more complicated than men are the problem hand wringing. We are walking into a ticking time bomb of negative attitudes to women simply by allowing free and easy access to porn with what is likely a glib chat in school for a couple of hours about consent. We have a more equal society for women than we have ever had yet are things improving. If we keep lowering the threshold then maybe it never will. Girls are doing better in school than boys yet we still have a relatively high number of self conscious teenage girls seemingly willing to do anything for their boyfriends. Go figure as I don't get it.
I guess I don't see it as men getting into a scuffle with each other because men can behave like prats (women fight and swear at each other just as well, if not better than men in some cases)
The point being addressed here is more like systematic downtreading of females due to their gender.
"Almost very woman has been sexually assualted in their life by a grown man who has acted like that because he knows he can get away with it"
- this could be from a sly grope on a packed train or taking upskirting photos through to someone pentrating a woman with his fingers into her through her pants in a nightclub - or grabbing them while they walk alone, or trapping them and making threatening remarks. (all of which have appeared on my LinkedIn feed)
Yes I am sure it happens the other way around but come on, do you really think it's quite as widespread?
Likewise I am not trying to antagonise you - but I am surprised you can't see this for what it is. This isn't "part of growing up" (your schoolboy analogy) or "boys being boys" (or girls being girls) - your one about people generally fighting.
I want to live in a fair and balanced society and therefore I believe the solution is based in challenging cultural norms and education. For sure enforce the example of a women getting penetrated by a man in a nightclub as this is a serious sexual assault but expecting the lower level stuff to be sorted by the criminal justice system is a fools errand that won't resolve the issue facing women.
If women banded together and started posting up the censored they are dealing with and identifying the individuals locally a lot of this stuff would start to come down. When that wolf whistling builder has got his mug on the local facebook page he might think twice. We have never had a better technological edge to hold people accountable for their actions. I don't get why it is not used more. In my local area people who don't pick up their dog poo are being named and shamed on the local Facebook page and guess what they rarely get caught twice.
The issue with posting stuff on facebook etc is it leads to vigilante action - who knows for sure whether the bloke who's been flamed on there genuinely committed what he's accused of, or is his ex just annoyed at him and using the platform to get revenge.
Look at the cases of people falsely accused of being paedophiles etc., or the case of Christopher Jefferies.
Joe Bloggs called me a fat slag last night outside the dog and duck has not got the same gravitas as a post nor is it likely to get much attention.
Or when someone posts 'That's that John Smith bloke from ABC Street, I swear it' and others take action based on that?....0 -
Not likely though[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Reads like the safe solution is pitchforks. Progress.
#sarcasmThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Should we not put CCTV of shed break ins etc on Facebook just in case someone mistakes the culprit for someone else?
Close pass videos just in case someone else other than the owner was driving the vehicle?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
It's a fair question - in those cases I don't think anyone is then taking action based on them - it's more for ID which is passed on.DeVlaeminck said:Should we not put CCTV of shed break ins etc on Facebook just in case someone mistakes the culprit for someone else?
Close pass videos just in case someone else other than the owner was driving the vehicle?
I'm not sure what action / consequence John is expecting in his example, are the Police going to get involved?0 -
By putting it out in the public you can often find the culprit particularly if you use local groups. I am pretty confident I could find someone in the local village facebook should a video of that person go where they are clearly doing something the majority disagree with. Once you have their name and where they live then yes the police will be very interested if they can get a conviction. In cities this gets harder but not impossible.yorkshireraw said:
It's a fair question - in those cases I don't think anyone is then taking action based on them - it's more for ID which is passed on.DeVlaeminck said:Should we not put CCTV of shed break ins etc on Facebook just in case someone mistakes the culprit for someone else?
Close pass videos just in case someone else other than the owner was driving the vehicle?
I'm not sure what action / consequence John is expecting in his example, are the Police going to get involved?
My mate in London with his neighbours secured quite a body of evidence against someone who was stealing parcels of doorsteps and bikes. The police had a very easy collar when he was identified through facebook marketplace selling thr stripped down bike and the neighbours had the doorbell CCTV to put him at the scene of the crime. If we expect the police to solve all our problems we might be waiting till they find a work force of psychics.
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There's a clear crime in that case though.john80 said:
By putting it out in the public you can often find the culprit particularly if you use local groups. I am pretty confident I could find someone in the local village facebook should a video of that person go where they are clearly doing something the majority disagree with. Once you have their name and where they live then yes the police will be very interested if they can get a conviction. In cities this gets harder but not impossible.yorkshireraw said:
It's a fair question - in those cases I don't think anyone is then taking action based on them - it's more for ID which is passed on.DeVlaeminck said:Should we not put CCTV of shed break ins etc on Facebook just in case someone mistakes the culprit for someone else?
Close pass videos just in case someone else other than the owner was driving the vehicle?
I'm not sure what action / consequence John is expecting in his example, are the Police going to get involved?
My mate in London with his neighbours secured quite a body of evidence against someone who was stealing parcels of doorsteps and bikes. The police had a very easy collar when he was identified through facebook marketplace selling thr stripped down bike and the neighbours had the doorbell CCTV to put him at the scene of the crime. If we expect the police to solve all our problems we might be waiting till they find a work force of psychics.
I think part of the issue is, short of physical assault, some of the issues such as cat calling / wolf whistling, whilst clearly idiotic and unpleasant, don't at this time necessarily constitute a crime, which is part of the issue.
And no doubt if someone was prosecuted for it (not sure which law would be broken if it was a random act, rather than sustained harassment of one person by another) - others would be screaming about the suppression of free speech.0 -
This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-565294911985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
surely everyone should feel safe at school. there does seem to be a lot of fear mongering in this social media campaign is there not a danger of creating the problem they seek to solve?
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If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-565294910 -
So the school gets a pass and it's the teenagers' fault/responsibility for the school not dealing with it properly? I mean the school should be getting the police involved anyway to investigate at least some of these claims.john80 said:
If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-565294911985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It was a report on Newsnight last night, not a social media campaign. Not sure how you see reporting incidents which appear to have been ignored by the schools in question would encourage others to sexually assault their classmates.david37 said:surely everyone should feel safe at school. there does seem to be a lot of fear mongering in this social media campaign is there not a danger of creating the problem they seek to solve?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
the school should report it. it's a crime.rjsterry said:
So the school gets a pass and it's the teenagers' fault/responsibility for the school not dealing with it properly? I mean the school should be getting the police involved anyway to investigate at least some of these claims.john80 said:
If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56529491
As a governor I found the focus on preserving reputation and the futures of children to have more focus than prevention. Once this stuff is happening, the school has failed anyway.
You're right the police should be called each and every time. maybe when that happens the issue will be taken seriously enough.
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That was broadly the accusation of the report. School reputation and results took precedence over care of students. I thought it was also pertinent to the question of where people learn that kind of behaviour. If they try it out in school and there are negligible consequences, why would they stop there?david37 said:
the school should report it. it's a crime.rjsterry said:
So the school gets a pass and it's the teenagers' fault/responsibility for the school not dealing with it properly? I mean the school should be getting the police involved anyway to investigate at least some of these claims.john80 said:
If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56529491
As a governor I found the focus on preserving reputation and the futures of children to have more focus than prevention. Once this stuff is happening, the school has failed anyway.
You're right the police should be called each and every time. maybe when that happens the issue will be taken seriously enough.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
why would they indeed. and the problem is perpetuated throughout careers. ah a little indiscretion shouldn't ruin someones future.............. if she didn't want anyone to see she shouldn't have sent him the picture. etc etc.rjsterry said:
That was broadly the accusation of the report. School reputation and results took precedence over care of students. I thought it was also pertinent to the question of where people learn that kind of behaviour. If they try it out in school and there are negligible consequences, why would they stop there?david37 said:
the school should report it. it's a crime.rjsterry said:
So the school gets a pass and it's the teenagers' fault/responsibility for the school not dealing with it properly? I mean the school should be getting the police involved anyway to investigate at least some of these claims.john80 said:
If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56529491
As a governor I found the focus on preserving reputation and the futures of children to have more focus than prevention. Once this stuff is happening, the school has failed anyway.
You're right the police should be called each and every time. maybe when that happens the issue will be taken seriously enough.
If it's just not tolerated then the problem is easier to deal with. As for where they learn it??? its human nature and hormones. School and home and peer groups is a place to learn about these things and the appropriate response and behaviour. Salcious gossip and sharing has been here for time immemorial .0 -
It would be admirable if someone of that age had the courage to go to the police when it was being ignored, but I don't think it should be expected of them.john80 said:
If the claims are true and the school did not address them then I don't see why your next stop would be the police. Bob keeps pestering me for naked selfies, I have reported this to the school and yet it continues. This is a clear crime is it not. The police would be within their rights to walk into that school and start seizing phones. When Bob and his mates phones are found to have pictures of naked girls on them good luck explaining that away. There is probably a 50:50 split of girls in that class and yet they can't get together as a group and with their parents and change the culture. There seems to be a view that justice and cultural change comes easy and by others driving it. What would Rosa Parks have to say about this.rjsterry said:This would seem to be relevant to the question of 'what can we do about it?'.
Link for those who don't like twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56529491
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Schools never seem to involve the police though. Physical assault, drug dealing etc. are always managed within the school. Not saying that is right, just that it is always the case.0
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Not sure what you're basing this on, but this is a long way from my experience. I can understand a reluctance to drag children into the criminal justice system unless absolutely necessary, but I would say drug dealing in school qualifies.TheBigBean said:Schools never seem to involve the police though. Physical assault, drug dealing etc. are always managed within the school. Not saying that is right, just that it is always the case.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
deffo. Drug dealing is a no go.0
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I an episode of the Simpsons one of the bullies suggests targeting adults as they have more money than their classmates. He is told they can not do this as it would be a crime.
Schoolkids need to understand the law and the consequences of breaking it.0 -
My school, so I'm very much out of date, but when I think of some of things that happened it is quite shocking to me now that there were never any police.rjsterry said:
Not sure what you're basing this on, but this is a long way from my experience. I can understand a reluctance to drag children into the criminal justice system unless absolutely necessary, but I would say drug dealing in school qualifies.TheBigBean said:Schools never seem to involve the police though. Physical assault, drug dealing etc. are always managed within the school. Not saying that is right, just that it is always the case.
Also, isn't it acknowledged that some of London's top private schools have drug problems? I suspect this involves a fair amount of peer to peer trading.
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Likewise - my school had quite a lot of drug dealing and generally police weren't involved. I think more along lines of preserving reputation than pupils.0
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I think police should be involved so pupils understand the seriousness of the offenses - but not to punish.surrey_commuter said:I an episode of the Simpsons one of the bullies suggests targeting adults as they have more money than their classmates. He is told they can not do this as it would be a crime.
Schoolkids need to understand the law and the consequences of breaking it.0 -
My former school (average small town North of England comp) has the dubious honour of having two pupils currently doing time for plotting to blow it up a few years back.shirley_basso said:Likewise - my school had quite a lot of drug dealing and generally police weren't involved. I think more along lines of preserving reputation than pupils.
When I was there (a fair while ago now) there was a bit of drug use (weed & pills) going on and the odd 15 year getting pregnant. Things obviously changed over time!
I've got mate who's a HT at a school in the NE of England - he had to deal with an attempted suicide the other week. It does seem a lot tougher for kids now.0 -
Likewise on my own experience. I'm pretty sure I remember the police being involved now and then with the small number of repeat troublemakers. Daughter's secondary school is noticeably tighter on discipline and pretty strong on pastoral care as well.TheBigBean said:
My school, so I'm very much out of date, but when I think of some of things that happened it is quite shocking to me now that there were never any police.rjsterry said:
Not sure what you're basing this on, but this is a long way from my experience. I can understand a reluctance to drag children into the criminal justice system unless absolutely necessary, but I would say drug dealing in school qualifies.TheBigBean said:Schools never seem to involve the police though. Physical assault, drug dealing etc. are always managed within the school. Not saying that is right, just that it is always the case.
Also, isn't it acknowledged that some of London's top private schools have drug problems? I suspect this involves a fair amount of peer to peer trading.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
One of my mates got expelled from the local fee paying grammar school for drug dealing 50 years ago. He was selling Oxo cubes to the rich kids.0
