Paris Nice 2021 ***Spoilers***

salsiccia1

The different interviews suggest that they waited after the first crash but that the race was on when he crashed the second time. The Jumbo DS said they got it wrong and there's no hint they feel hard done by, at least in my reading of it.

tailwindhome

Really looking forward to MSR

There's a lot of potential winners in great form

ddraver

Fairly sure it's fine now, but just in case I'm not going to put any spoilers. But it would be interesting to see where he would've come at T-A today.

phreak

RichN95. said:

So from the last two days we have leanred that the unwritten rules include:

Don't beat lesser riders
Don't race better riders

I thought not attacking the yellow jersey if they crash was well established.

The chasing down reminded me of Armstrong and Simeoni. Nothing technically wrong with race leaders ruining a break but there's a sense of solidarity in the peloton that everyone has to eat.

RichN95.

phreak said:

I thought not attacking the yellow jersey if they crash was well established.

It depends where it is. If it's somewhere where racing hard would be unusual, then sure. But this was 20km from the finish. Where do we drawn the line?

salsiccia1

If people want GC riders not to chase down stage wins then get rid of bonus seconds at the finish. If there weren't 10 seconds on the line then Mäder would probably have been first over it yesterday.

Pross

phreak said:

pblakeney said:

markwb79 said:

If Roglic didn't win yesterday, probably no one would have known if he gifted it or not.

It wouldn't have changed anything today. They would have ridden regardless.

Unless people think they would have paused, chatted and said.... 'well he didn't win yesterday, shall we let him catch back up again.'

Top end of elite sport, they are all driven to win.

This may well be the case today, but it wasn't in the past. The peloton would sit up for the jersey. Wasn't there an incident when Wiggins sat up in the Tour?

It has been an unwritten rule of the sport that you don't attack when the leader crashes for practically the entirety of the sport's history. Of course, if the leader shows a dog-eat-dog attitude then those rules are more likely to be cast aside.

I think the key there is you don't attack. That's not the same as sitting up and waiting for them to get back if they have an incident.

RichN95.

salsiccia1 said:

If people want GC riders not to chase down stage wins then get rid of bonus seconds at the finish. If there weren't 10 seconds on the line then Mäder would probably have been first over it yesterday.

I disagree. He wants to win. His team wants him to win.

No_Ta_Doctor

There's a huge amount of guff written about "the unwritten rules". There aren't any moral imperatives in them, they simply emerge from the peloton remembering who earned good will and who earned ill will. If the peloton in general decide it's going to be dog eat dog in everything they do then that's how it will be.

In yesterday's race, Roglic was at one point only a handful of seconds from the back of the peloton. The front of the peloton was a lot further ahead, being drilled by Bora. While it's fair to say the race was on - they were still chasing a break, I think - perhaps a spot of good will earned the day before would have got him back into contact?

I'm not saying Roglic was punished for some transgression, just that at the point he could have done with a small favour there was none to be found.

Later on, when it was far too late, he did get some help from riders dropped from the peloton. I wonder if he'll remember them come the Tour?

DeadCalm

No_Ta_Doctor said:

I wonder if he'll remember them come the Tour?

Bouhanni is expecting a full blown Lotto Jumbo leadout, WVA and all.

kingstongraham

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Later on, when it was far too late, he did get some help from riders dropped from the peloton. I wonder if he'll remember them come the Tour?

He might remember the one who rode off the road and almost made him crash for a third time.

bobmcstuff

Schachmann sounded pretty humble about the whole thing. Said the second crash was when the race was already on as well, waiting up for the first one is fine but I don't see how you can expect the race to be essentially neutralised in the last 20k when things are already happening.

Although it did look like Bora worked pretty hard to really put Roglic to the sword... Roglic/JV didn't seem too cut up about it though.

rick_chasey

Race was already on, it's fine.

Basically if you're all chilling and then because your rival is on the ground you *then* decide to go for it, you're a mug.

If it's already flat out and then your rival falls off, well, that's his problem.

I blame Lance for a lot of this nonsense, as he would literally pause a finale to make sure that all his rivals were in the best seats in the house to see him absolutely rinse them.

yorkshireraw

No_Ta_Doctor said:

There's a huge amount of guff written about "the unwritten rules". There aren't any moral imperatives in them, they simply emerge from the peloton remembering who earned good will and who earned ill will. If the peloton in general decide it's going to be dog eat dog in everything they do then that's how it will be.

In yesterday's race, Roglic was at one point only a handful of seconds from the back of the peloton. The front of the peloton was a lot further ahead, being drilled by Bora. While it's fair to say the race was on - they were still chasing a break, I think - perhaps a spot of good will earned the day before would have got him back into contact?

I'm not saying Roglic was punished for some transgression, just that at the point he could have done with a small favour there was none to be found.

Later on, when it was far too late, he did get some help from riders dropped from the peloton. I wonder if he'll remember them come the Tour?

Could imagine Bouhanni was eyeing up sliding into Dylan G's sprinter slot at JV with a tasty contract, rather than gaining any brownie points for Arkea.

yorkshireraw

rick_chasey said:

Race was already on, it's fine.

Basically if you're all chilling and then because your rival is on the ground you *then* decide to go for it, you're a mug.

If it's already flat out and then your rival falls off, well, that's his problem.

I blame Lance for a lot of this nonsense, as he would literally pause a finale to make sure that all his rivals were in the best seats in the house to see him absolutely rinse them.

All this.

The only 'unwritten' rule that should be 100% supported is not attacking through the feedzone, as it's putting riders in danger.

Everything else depends on race circumstances.

rick_chasey

A bigger issue is why Roglic crashed twice.

He also crashed at the end of the Dauphine and went into the Tour banged up.

ddraver

rick_chasey said:

Basically if you're all chilling and then because your rival is on the ground you *then* decide to go for it, you're a Movistar Rider

FTFY 😋

david37

rick_chasey said:

A bigger issue is why Roglic crashed twice.

He also crashed at the end of the Dauphine and went into the Tour banged up.

im not sure if GC riders crash more than others but it seems that way, Richy porte serial faller offer, Roglic didn't groom have a bit of a knack of falling off too?

tailwindhome

rick_chasey said:

A bigger issue is why Roglic crashed twice.

He also crashed at the end of the Dauphine and went into the Tour banged up.

There was some discussion of a dislocated shoulder which may well have been a factor in the 2nd crash

Dorset_Boy

Either roglic has a history of dislocating his shoulder (and therefore being able to pop it back in fairly easily) or it was a Contadoresque dislocation.

bobmcstuff

Dorset_Boy said:

Either roglic has a history of dislocating his shoulder (and therefore being able to pop it back in fairly easily) or it was a Contadoresque dislocation.

Ski jumping presumably involves a fair bit of shoulder dislocation if skiing in general is any guide.

bobmcstuff

tailwindhome said:

rick_chasey said:

A bigger issue is why Roglic crashed twice.

He also crashed at the end of the Dauphine and went into the Tour banged up.

There was some discussion of a dislocated shoulder which may well have been a factor in the 2nd crash

Lots of adrenaline after the first crash, pushing to get back on etc.

rick_chasey

Dorset_Boy said:

Either roglic has a history of dislocating his shoulder (and therefore being able to pop it back in fairly easily) or it was a Contadoresque dislocation.

Tyler Hamilton broke his collarbone on Stage 1 of the 2003 Tour and came 4th overall and won a third week stage with a 142km solo breakaway.

These people are built differently.

m.r.m.

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

A bigger issue is why Roglic crashed twice.

He also crashed at the end of the Dauphine and went into the Tour banged up.

im not sure if GC riders crash more than others but it seems that way, Richy porte serial faller offer, Roglic didn't groom have a bit of a knack of falling off too?

Think it's just down to people making note of it more when it's GC riders.

david37

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Either roglic has a history of dislocating his shoulder (and therefore being able to pop it back in fairly easily) or it was a Contadoresque dislocation.

Tyler Hamilton broke his collarbone on Stage 1 of the 2003 Tour and came 4th overall and won a third week stage with a 142km solo breakaway.

These people are built differently.

Tyler was on epic amounts of gear as well. I rode that stage, as part of the etape. for the ride I did the wind got up and I absolutely died with ten miles to go, one of the worst experiences I had on the bike.

Lanterne_Rogue

ddraver said:

rick_chasey said:

Basically if you're all chilling and then because your rival is on the ground you *then* decide to go for it, you're a Movistar Rider

FTFY 😋

Yeah, but if you're a Movistar rider your biggest rivals are all on the same team as you, so it's hardly the same...

takethehighroad

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

Dorset_Boy said:

Either roglic has a history of dislocating his shoulder (and therefore being able to pop it back in fairly easily) or it was a Contadoresque dislocation.

Tyler Hamilton broke his collarbone on Stage 1 of the 2003 Tour and came 4th overall and won a third week stage with a 142km solo breakaway.

These people are built differently.

Tyler was on epic amounts of gear as well.

Didn't realise EPO healed broken collarbones

shirley_basso

Didn't he grind all his teeth down to the gums as he gurned in agony

rick_chasey

shirley_basso said:

Didn't he grind all his teeth down to the gums as he gurned in agony

Believe so, though that may have been the back injury in another later Tour

andyp

rick_chasey said:

shirley_basso said:

Didn't he grind all his teeth down to the gums as he gurned in agony

Believe so, though that may have been the back injury in another later Tour

Earlier Giro, wasn't it? The 2002 edition where he finished second (?) with a broken shoulder.