Paris Nice 2021 ***Spoilers***

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Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    edited March 2021
    curium99 said:

    Why did so many teams ride against Roglic after his crash?


    When did he actually crash? I tuned in with 22km to go and he was only just off the back and the race was very much on at that stage as you'd expect.

    The teams I saw riding where Bora, Astana (who had 2nd-4th places) and Cofidis who had a good shot at the stage.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    Everyone still thinks Roglic should have gifted yesterday’s stage?
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,387
    He went down twice, and nearly had a third.
    By all account the race was full on when he went down the second time.
    Don't know about the first crash.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    inseine said:

    Everyone still thinks Roglic should have gifted yesterday’s stage?


    It's far from everyone. Take your wins when you can as you don't know what tomorrow will bring.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    inseine said:

    Everyone still thinks Roglic should have gifted yesterday’s stage?

    Hard to say. Brora would obviously have pushed on regardless, but everyone else?
    It is a team sport and not necessarily only the one team at a time. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    The amount of help he got on the climb suggests that most teams didn't think he did anything wrong yesterday.

    About the only team that didn't pull on the from was BV...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Some chat on Twitter that Roglič dislocated his shoulder in the first crash. Don't know how true that is
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    salsiccia1 said:

    Some chat on Twitter that Roglič dislocated his shoulder in the first crash. Don't know how true that is


    Roglic is the one who said it. As good as source as any.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • markwb79
    markwb79 Posts: 937
    If Roglic didn't win yesterday, probably no one would have known if he gifted it or not.

    It wouldn't have changed anything today. They would have ridden regardless.

    Unless people think they would have paused, chatted and said.... 'well he didn't win yesterday, shall we let him catch back up again.'

    Top end of elite sport, they are all driven to win.
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    edited March 2021
    markwb79 said:

    If Roglic didn't win yesterday, probably no one would have known if he gifted it or not.

    It wouldn't have changed anything today. They would have ridden regardless.

    Unless people think they would have paused, chatted and said.... 'well he didn't win yesterday, shall we let him catch back up again.'

    Top end of elite sport, they are all driven to win.

    This may well be the case today, but it wasn't in the past. The peloton would sit up for the jersey. Wasn't there an incident when Wiggins sat up in the Tour?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    pblakeney said:

    markwb79 said:

    If Roglic didn't win yesterday, probably no one would have known if he gifted it or not.

    It wouldn't have changed anything today. They would have ridden regardless.

    Unless people think they would have paused, chatted and said.... 'well he didn't win yesterday, shall we let him catch back up again.'

    Top end of elite sport, they are all driven to win.

    This may well be the case today, but it wasn't in the past. The peloton would sit up for the jersey. Wasn't there an incident when Wiggins sat up in the Tour?
    It has been an unwritten rule of the sport that you don't attack when the leader crashes for practically the entirety of the sport's history. Of course, if the leader shows a dog-eat-dog attitude then those rules are more likely to be cast aside.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    I think the dust will have to settle to find out the whole story.
    The second crash isn't confirmed, but assumed from the rip on the other side of his shorts.
    If he did crash a second time, he didn't take long to remount as he was initially seen with Demare, who had made the back of the bunch after a chase.
    Therefore if the split was simply made by pressure on the descent, then hard luck.
    However, Hatch reported that he had to stop for a bike change at the foot of the descent.
    If they attacked at that point, well........
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,787
    Whatever happened it must have involved his entire team being burnt out at some stage.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,455
    I think the case can be made for either side on the Roglic-Mäder issue. Less on one side of it in regards to mercy, but rather as a tactical tool to collect that favour at a later date. Maybe one a day like today, maybe some other day down the line (will obviously only ever work if said team doesn't have an objective in conflict to the favour).
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    m.r.m. said:

    I think the case can be made for either side on the Roglic-Mäder issue. Less on one side of it in regards to mercy, but rather as a tactical tool to collect that favour at a later date. Maybe one a day like today, maybe some other day down the line (will obviously only ever work if said team doesn't have an objective in conflict to the favour).

    That's the point I was trying to make yesterday regarding quid pro quo.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    pblakeney said:



    This may well be the case today, but it wasn't in the past. The peloton would sit up for the jersey. Wasn't there an incident when Wiggins sat up in the Tour?


    The Wiggins thing was because someone had thrown tacks across the road and loads of riders got a puncture.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    RichN95. said:

    pblakeney said:



    This may well be the case today, but it wasn't in the past. The peloton would sit up for the jersey. Wasn't there an incident when Wiggins sat up in the Tour?


    The Wiggins thing was because someone had thrown tacks across the road and loads of riders got a puncture.
    Thanks!
    Principle is the same though?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,387
    blazing_saddles said:

    I think the dust will have to settle to find out the whole story.
    The second crash isn't confirmed, but assumed from the rip on the other side of his shorts.
    If he did crash a second time, he didn't take long to remount as he was initially seen with Demare, who had made the back of the bunch after a chase.
    Therefore if the split was simply made by pressure on the descent, then hard luck.
    However, Hatch reported that he had to stop for a bike change at the foot of the descent.
    If they attacked at that point, well........

    But if he crashed on a descent, he may have borrowed a bike to get down the rest of the descent and then changed the bike in the valley to his spare bike.

    Does anyone know when his original crash happened?
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    edited March 2021
    It seems like it was all off-camera. Most I heard is Adam Blythe suggesting LJ werent positioned too well at the base of the descent when he crashed a second time. We'll have to wait and see if we got the story next week. I suspect Roglic may be at the bottom of a bottle of Whsipering Angel right now...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    edited March 2021
    From the Cycling News feed.

    https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/paris-nice-2021/stage-8/live-report/

    (this is probably covered in the thread )


    14:06:09 GMT
    Roglic has crashed as well!

    14:08:49 GMT
    Roglic looks fine and is now back in the peloton, which slowed to allow him back in. He had teammates to guide him back but no one sought to take advantage there.

    14:19:02 GMT
    Roglic has a huge road rash on his left hip.

    14:29:09 GMT
    Roglic's Jumbo-Visma team are also contributing to the pace setting in the peloton. The gap is up to 38 seconds.


    14:57:23 GMT
    And now Jumbo bring the peloton across at 1:10

    [SOMETHING HAPPENS]

    15:10:41 GMT
    Split in the peloton and Roglic is caught out!

    15:11:45 GMT
    FDJ are working with Roglic here. Their leader Gaudu has already gone home...

    [YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND IN ME, YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND IN ME...]

    15:13:12 GMT
    Roglic has Kruijswijk chasing with him.

    15:13:38 GMT
    Bora are putting the hammer down in the front peloton


    15:16:12 GMT
    Fraile has been called back from the break.

    15:16:31 GMT
    George Bennett is back and helping with the chase.

    [ANOTHER SOMETHING HAPPENS]

    15:17:53 GMT
    Roglic has another tear in his shorts - this time on the right hip. That could well be another crash.

    15:19:19 GMT
    Roglic is alone now!

    15:20:30 GMT
    Somehow, Nacer Bouhanni is pacing Roglic back to the peloton.

    [YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND IN ME, YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND IN ME...]

    15:21:26 GMT
    17KM TO GO
    Cofidis and Astana are working with Bora here to distance Roglic.

    15:25:05 GMT
    Bouhanni gives Roglic one last turn before the race leader goes solo.







    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    tailwindhome said:



    (this is probably covered in the thread )

    None of us were watching, not even sure there was coverage...

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    ddraver said:

    tailwindhome said:



    (this is probably covered in the thread )

    None of us were watching, not even sure there was coverage...

    We're just going to have to wait to hear what Gary Imlach has to say....
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    edited March 2021
    pblakeney said:

    m.r.m. said:

    I think the case can be made for either side on the Roglic-Mäder issue. Less on one side of it in regards to mercy, but rather as a tactical tool to collect that favour at a later date. Maybe one a day like today, maybe some other day down the line (will obviously only ever work if said team doesn't have an objective in conflict to the favour).

    That's the point I was trying to make yesterday regarding quid pro quo.
    Do you think Bora would have ridden differently if Roglic hadn't crashed? Do you also think they'd have given up a P-N Victory for the "unwritten rules"?

    Primoz needs to work on Closing out races in France. It's almost a little bit freaky now...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    edited March 2021
    Dorset_Boy said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    I think the dust will have to settle to find out the whole story.
    The second crash isn't confirmed, but assumed from the rip on the other side of his shorts.
    If he did crash a second time, he didn't take long to remount as he was initially seen with Demare, who had made the back of the bunch after a chase.
    Therefore if the split was simply made by pressure on the descent, then hard luck.
    However, Hatch reported that he had to stop for a bike change at the foot of the descent.
    If they attacked at that point, well........

    But if he crashed on a descent, he may have borrowed a bike to get down the rest of the descent and then changed the bike in the valley to his spare bike.

    Does anyone know when his original crash happened?
    I thought I'd covered all the possibilities, but yes he could have.
    Or he could have just been nervous after crashing on that section the first time around.
    As I said, the only benchmark I saw was Demare getting back in the bunch about a third of the way down the descent and Roglic being with him at the bottom.

    I guess we will eventually find out.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    ddraver said:

    pblakeney said:

    m.r.m. said:

    I think the case can be made for either side on the Roglic-Mäder issue. Less on one side of it in regards to mercy, but rather as a tactical tool to collect that favour at a later date. Maybe one a day like today, maybe some other day down the line (will obviously only ever work if said team doesn't have an objective in conflict to the favour).

    That's the point I was trying to make yesterday regarding quid pro quo.
    Do you think Bora would have ridden differently if Roglic hadn't crashed? Do you also think they'd have given up a P-N Victory for the "unwritten rules"?
    ...
    They'd have had way less incentive to attack without the crash. Nobody saw that lead being lost this morning.
    They wouldn't give up a Race win. A stage win maybe, or assist when asked for future favours, but that's going too far.
    But that's just my expectations today. There were "unwritten rules" in the past.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    So from the last two days we have leanred that the unwritten rules include:

    Don't beat lesser riders
    Don't race better riders
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,455
    ddraver said:

    Primoz needs to work on Closing out races in France. It's almost a little bit freaky now...

    It's purely coincidence. His quality is evident and they shouldn't overthink it as a team. Just go again next time and see if you can work on smaller positional issues or saving more energy throughout the race.
    Didn't Tony Martin crash out 1-2 days ago with a fractured elbow? Maybe if he had still been there, he would have been able to pace Roglic back or limit his damage close enough to at least keep P1 in GC.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • brundonbianchi
    brundonbianchi Posts: 689
    Karma?
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Chameleon
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    edited March 2021
    “I made some mistakes today. In the first fall my left shoulder was dislocated. Then I fell again. I gave everything, but I couldn’t get [back] into the first group anymore. It’s a shame, but on to the next one. This is also part of the sport. We will definitely be back in the next races.”
    Primoz clears that up.

    Also:
    “I had a puncture in the beginning just before the first climb and nobody was waiting and had to go really deep to get back,”
    Max Schachmann.

    What I find interesting is that both Roglic and Schachmann had combine total of 0 race days, before this race.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

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