TDF 2020 - Stage 21: Mantes-la-Jolie - Paris Champs-Élysées 122 km *Spoilers*

pblakeney

bobmcstuff said:

bobmcstuff said:

RichN95. said:

bobmcstuff said:

The fundamental issue with the BLM thing and cycling is that professional cycling is overwhelmingly white, so any intervention seems tokenistic (everyone rushing to interview Kevin Reza for example). TrainerRoad felt a bit similar when they interviewed the US amateur crit champion, Justin Williams, he has been in massive media demand in connection with BLM (Rapha did a whole thing with him too).

The thing iabout cycling's whiteness is I'm unconvinced that there are all that many black people who are interested in cycling. The media ask the few that are, repeatedly as you say but generally? I've see pro races in three countries. Everyone watching is white.

Meanwhile the World Cup squads for England, France and Belgium were all 50% black/mixed race. The way to get greater representation of black people in minority sports is to ban football.

Personally? I think it's a grassroots issue, and a vicious circle. No minorities in cycling leads to limited interest in cycling from those groups, which is self sustaining. Football and rugby were all white at one point too - you don't generate that kind of interest overnight, and it is unrealistic to expect change to be that fast.

If you were a young black kid in Manchester, you're not going to look at cycling and think "this is a sport for me", when you compare it to either of the football clubs here.

Further to this we don't do a very good job in general of getting kids on bikes from a young age. Whereas pretty much all kids will kick a football around.

Not true, generally, I think.
Most children get a bike at some point. Few take up "cycling".

bobmcstuff

RichN95. said:

bobmcstuff said:

Personally? I think it's a grassroots issue, and a vicious circle. No minorities in cycling leads to limited interest in cycling from those groups, which is self sustaining. Football and rugby were all white at one point too - you don't generate that kind of interest overnight, and it is unrealistic to expect change to be that fast.

If you were a young black kid in Manchester, you're not going to look at cycling and think "this is a sport for me", when you compare it to either of the football clubs here.

Conversely though, I don't see much increase in diversity in golf or tennis after Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters

Cycling seems to me a sport you get into because your dad or uncle was into it or there's a real good club nearby. It doesn't seem to something many would seek out independently. There's a large number of pros who are sons of pros.
Also I would suggest that the areas that pro cyclists come from - suburban, small towns, rural, are fairly low in black residents.

I don't think we disagree on that - I think what I am saying is, that's really hard to change!

I guess from a pro race perspective, we must be missing out on some really good cyclists just because they've never seriously ridden a bike. From my own perspective, cycling is absolutely great and it makes me sad that so many people don't get to enjoy it (doing it that is). But I appreciate that's just like, my opinion, man.

Lanterne_Rogue

Didn't GB Cycling put a fair bit of effort in the mid-2000s into converting cyclists across from other sports, or am I imagining that? Rebecca Romero was one who came in via that route, IIRC. It's surprising that effort didn't turn up a generation of young black cyclists, and it'd be interesting to know if the current set-up is doing anything to try and tap into that undoubted talent pool - seems a bit of a waste if they're not.

andyp

RichN95. said:

Cycling seems to me a sport you get into because your dad or uncle was into it or there's a real good club nearby. It doesn't seem to something many would seek out independently. There's a large number of pros who are sons of pros.
Also I would suggest that the areas that pro cyclists come from - suburban, small towns, rural, are fairly low in black residents.

I'm not sure the evidence backs this up. Just take the British riders in Ineos as an example, Thomas, Rowe and Doull all from Cardiff, which has one of the oldest established black communities in Britain. Geoghegan-Hart and Hayter are both from London. Which leaves Stannard, born in Chelmsford, Lawless, born in Wigan, and Swift, Rotherham, all of which have a significant percentage of black and asian populations. Finally Froome, but he's an outlier (again) as he grew up somewhere where the white population was the minority.

BC do a lot of talent spotting but they seem to be colour blind for reasons that cannot be explained easily. I'm not saying they are racist, but there doesn't seem to be any attempt to engage with and identify talent from Britain's black and asian communities.

blazing_saddles

Going back to the women commentator situation for a moment and here's the rub.
The England v West Indies women's T 20 series has started this evening.
Unless I have missed it, which is possible, there seems to be only women commentators.
There doesn't seem to be any flow going in the opposite direction.
Not sure that's what we should be aiming for at the end of the day.

bobmcstuff

Thats fair but the fact that the women's T20 even has coverage with commentators is surely worth celebrating - how hard do we find it to follow women's bike races?

GCN seems to be making an effort to put the women's races on where available now.

cq20

davidof’s perspective is useful

cq20

pblakeney said:

blazing_saddles said:

above_the_cows said:

RichN95. said:

daniel_b said:

What was Rob Hatch talking about early on - I'll paraphrase, but he was saying they were meant to do something before the flag dropped, and that they had obviously missed a memo, or missed the mood.

Anyone know what he was referring to?

He and others in the cycling media demanded the riders make a big anti-racism gesture. Presumably so that the media themselves don't have to confront their own overwhelming whiteness.

And maleness, granted there are a few more women than there were, but...

If it's commentary you are referring to, you will find many women have already found jobs in rugby, cricket and football.
The recent T 20 cricket series at one point had an all women commentary team (those Bob mentioned.)
Yesterday's Champion's Cup rugby had Danielle Waterman co-commentating (mostly her in reality.)

Our Becky's "bestie" has become are regular commentator for GCN's race pass coverage.
Eurosport use Jo Rowsell, but if you are hoping for a women commentator on their men's races, somebody needs to shoot Kirby!

Paging Rick Chasey!

I would rather replace Hatch. He was full of sanctimonious BS yesterday and completely OTT

RichN95.

andyp said:

I'm not sure the evidence backs this up. Just take the British riders in Ineos as an example, Thomas, Rowe and Doull all from Cardiff, which has one of the oldest established black communities in Britain. Geoghegan-Hart and Hayter are both from London. Which leaves Stannard, born in Chelmsford, Lawless, born in Wigan, and Swift, Rotherham, all of which have a significant percentage of black and asian populations. Finally Froome, but he's an outlier (again) as he grew up somewhere where the white population was the minority.

BC do a lot of talent spotting but they seem to be colour blind for reasons that cannot be explained easily. I'm not saying they are racist, but there doesn't seem to be any attempt to engage with and identify talent from Britain's black and asian communities.

That's just Britain. Thomas, Rowe and Doull are or from the generally suburbs of North Cardiff were it's easy to get out into the country.

Talking of Cardiff, this is Maindy Flyers, a great welcoming club where you don't even have to have a bike to join in. Everyone's white:



As the saying goes you lead a horse to water unless it would rather play football. I've seen this in hockey. There used to be loads of Indians and Pakistanis play, but there numbers have declined greatly over the years as their kids want to play football.

above_the_cows

bobmcstuff said:

bobmcstuff said:

RichN95. said:

bobmcstuff said:

The fundamental issue with the BLM thing and cycling is that professional cycling is overwhelmingly white, so any intervention seems tokenistic (everyone rushing to interview Kevin Reza for example). TrainerRoad felt a bit similar when they interviewed the US amateur crit champion, Justin Williams, he has been in massive media demand in connection with BLM (Rapha did a whole thing with him too).

The thing iabout cycling's whiteness is I'm unconvinced that there are all that many black people who are interested in cycling. The media ask the few that are, repeatedly as you say but generally? I've see pro races in three countries. Everyone watching is white.

Meanwhile the World Cup squads for England, France and Belgium were all 50% black/mixed race. The way to get greater representation of black people in minority sports is to ban football.

Personally? I think it's a grassroots issue, and a vicious circle. No minorities in cycling leads to limited interest in cycling from those groups, which is self sustaining. Football and rugby were all white at one point too - you don't generate that kind of interest overnight, and it is unrealistic to expect change to be that fast.

If you were a young black kid in Manchester, you're not going to look at cycling and think "this is a sport for me", when you compare it to either of the football clubs here.

Further to this we don't do a very good job in general of getting kids on bikes from a young age. Whereas pretty much all kids will kick a football around.

All boys will kick a football around... Just saying. Much more can be done to encourage girls into ALL sports.

I'm probably the only woman who still posts on this forum... So I'm keeping all you fellas on your toes.

I think cycling can do so much more for both female and non-white representation and its intersections. If you don't see someone like you doing what you love, you don't believe it is for you, even before we get to all the structural issues in place.

above_the_cows

RichN95. said:

Conversely though, I don't see much increase in diversity in golf or tennis after Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters.

Google Naomi Osaka and Coco Gauff and see what they have to say about the influence of both the Williams sisters but also of Osaka's influence on Gauff...

Just becasue it doesn't make mainstream media - which is still fundamentally dominated by white dudes and which lets be honest ars still less than kind about Serena Williams - it doesn't mean things are not changing below the surface, there's a thousand little earthquakes happening if folks pay attention...

Lanterne_Rogue

It's always worth asking what barriers exist and whether they can come down though.

As regards women's cricket, I've got TMS on right now. Two male voices, one female - though as it's arguable that the BBC's A-team for cricket commentary right now are Isa Guha, Alison Mitchell and ERB, maybe they're not giving this series the respect they should be?

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

RichN95. said:

Cycling seems to me a sport you get into because your dad or uncle was into it or there's a real good club nearby. It doesn't seem to something many would seek out independently. There's a large number of pros who are sons of pros.
Also I would suggest that the areas that pro cyclists come from - suburban, small towns, rural, are fairly low in black residents.

I'm not sure the evidence backs this up. Just take the British riders in Ineos as an example, Thomas, Rowe and Doull all from Cardiff, which has one of the oldest established black communities in Britain. Geoghegan-Hart and Hayter are both from London. Which leaves Stannard, born in Chelmsford, Lawless, born in Wigan, and Swift, Rotherham, all of which have a significant percentage of black and asian populations. Finally Froome, but he's an outlier (again) as he grew up somewhere where the white population was the minority.

BC do a lot of talent spotting but they seem to be colour blind for reasons that cannot be explained easily. I'm not saying they are racist, but there doesn't seem to be any attempt to engage with and identify talent from Britain's black and asian communities.

I don't think BC do talent spot now in the sense of getting athletic kids into cycling they look at successful youth riders , who are overwhelmingly white.

If they wanted to break the cycle so ethnic minorities look at cycling and see role models BC would need to do a lot of work - maybe they should but it would cost and take money from elsewhere so I suppose it's a question of priorities.

Does any sport do this? I mean football has a lot of ethnic minority players in academies up to the top level - in fact they are over represented - but what does it do about the lack of British Asians at a decent level? As far as I know nothing and football has more money than other sports.

jimmyjams

Re women commentating men's cycling,
in France Marion Rousse did some commentating during the Tour for French media, while anyone who ever watched RAI coverage of the Giro will know Alessandra De Stefano. For 10 years she always led the programme analysing the day's racing immediately after the end of each stage, she herself being passionate about cycling. (De Stefano got promoted up the RAI hierarchy last year so no longer leads the analysis)
They are exceptions of course, though.

jimmyjams

Re cycling and black communities,
I worked for several years for an American company, about half the staff being Americans who had come over to work in Europe. Amongst them were about 8 keen cyclists with whom I rode from time to time, 3 women, 5 men, one of whom was black.
And he told me that in the USA there are so-called Black Cycling Clubs, originally formed because African-Americans trying to get into cycling were sometimes discriminated against or even threatened by some of the white cycling community because of the colour of their skin. Nowadays the clubs are open for anyone to join but in several places their members are still predominantly black or hispanic.
I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, I just thought it interesting to hear how things developed there. Evidently there is a definite interest in cycling among African-Americans.

The Black Cycling Clubs also recognised that good quality bikes and kit costs money, and so the clubs sought sponsorship to reduce the financial burden on their generally poor club members. In the above discussion about why ethnic minorities in the UK don't take up cycling, no one seems to have addressed that money might play a role, but it surely must do in the deprived communities in which many ethnic groups live, especially where theft is rife too.

On the topic of encouraging cycling in Asian ethnic communities in the UK, this is worth reading; one realises there is a cultural aspect too:
http:bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf//

davidof

jimmyjams said:

Re women commentating men's cycling,
in France Marion Rousse did some commentating during the Tour for French media,

Marion is the consultant for all of France 3's cycling coverage since 2017 (along with Laurent Jalabert). Marion also has a commentary role throughout the races. However she was preceeded by sports journalist Claire Bricogne who had a more important commentary role than Marion for the Tour de France. Claire now does commentary for l'Equipe TV which also has Estelle Denis commentating on Football.

As for role models, Teniel Campbell has been prominent in races recently - although partly because she's twice the size of the other members of the women's peleton.

Someone mentioned Kenyan Chris Froome. The Kenyan cycling federation would seem to be a model for how not to encourage African riders into cycling but would appear to be typical of how federations are run on that continent (corrupt and incompetent).

Regarding BLM, France had the universal declaration of the rights of man in 1789 - the still hot USA subjects of busing, CRM etc are not so important here. BLM France has representatives such as luvvie Camélia Jordana whose father was a terrorist in Algeria with the FLN who then refugeed in France and Camélia grew up in a comfortable bourgeois environment which doesn't lend to credibility. In fact she's turned the whole movement into a laughing stock.

I would go as far as to say Rob Hatch is guilty of cultural imperialism. Wanting to impose his views on other nations and cultures.

bobmcstuff

Because there's no racism in France...

Lanterne_Rogue

"France had the universal declaration of the rights of man in 1789 "

Haiti, 1791: "No, no, no! We didn't mean you!"

No_Ta_Doctor

jimmyjams said:

On the topic of encouraging cycling in Asian ethnic communities in the UK, this is worth reading; one realises there is a cultural aspect too:
http:bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf//

Link fixed:
http://bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf

above_the_cows

jimmyjams said:

Re cycling and black communities,
I worked for several years for an American company, about half the staff being Americans who had come over to work in Europe. Amongst them were about 8 keen cyclists with whom I rode from time to time, 3 women, 5 men, one of whom was black.
And he told me that in the USA there are so-called Black Cycling Clubs, originally formed because African-Americans trying to get into cycling were sometimes discriminated against or even threatened by some of the white cycling community because of the colour of their skin. Nowadays the clubs are open for anyone to join but in several places their members are still predominantly black or hispanic.
I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, I just thought it interesting to hear how things developed there. Evidently there is a definite interest in cycling among African-Americans.

The Black Cycling Clubs also recognised that good quality bikes and kit costs money, and so the clubs sought sponsorship to reduce the financial burden on their generally poor club members. In the above discussion about why ethnic minorities in the UK don't take up cycling, no one seems to have addressed that money might play a role, but it surely must do in the deprived communities in which many ethnic groups live, especially where theft is rife too.

On the topic of encouraging cycling in Asian ethnic communities in the UK, this is worth reading; one realises there is a cultural aspect too:
http:bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf//

There are quite a few academic studies that have looked at how Black African Americans are actively excluded from cycling in certain parts of the country because of racism and the remnants of Jim Crow - simply put that to cycle around certain areas of the country as a Black person, especially a Black man, is still dangerous. Having to deal with bad drivers is scary enough when you're white, imagine having to deal with bad racist drivers...

above_the_cows

Lanterne_Rogue said:

"France had the universal declaration of the rights of man in 1789 "

Haiti, 1791: "No, no, no! We didn't mean you!"

Or you women... It's not the declaration of the rights of man, its the decalration of the rights of white bourgeois man, that clearly limited rights for others, servants, women, slaves, children... This is why Hortense Spillers says Black women are considered the least human and Sylvia Wynter talks about the overrepresentation of white bourgeois men in understandings of what it means to be human.

rick_chasey

I think most white blokes found cycling clubs fairly intimidating when they started at the best of times, so presumably if you're not that it is even more intimidating.

It's also a sport that is easier to do in the 'burbs and in the country - city centres are a schlep to get out of for a bike ride, so presumably that is a factor too.

It's not an inclusive sport - hell, I spend lots of time moaning about n00bs to the sport on here (even if I have helped run various n00b club runs in the past).

TheBigBean

Bikes cost a lot to buy and maintain which I imagine is a significant factor when compared to playing football in the park.

DeVlaeminck

above_the_cows said:

jimmyjams said:

Re cycling and black communities,
I worked for several years for an American company, about half the staff being Americans who had come over to work in Europe. Amongst them were about 8 keen cyclists with whom I rode from time to time, 3 women, 5 men, one of whom was black.
And he told me that in the USA there are so-called Black Cycling Clubs, originally formed because African-Americans trying to get into cycling were sometimes discriminated against or even threatened by some of the white cycling community because of the colour of their skin. Nowadays the clubs are open for anyone to join but in several places their members are still predominantly black or hispanic.
I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, I just thought it interesting to hear how things developed there. Evidently there is a definite interest in cycling among African-Americans.

The Black Cycling Clubs also recognised that good quality bikes and kit costs money, and so the clubs sought sponsorship to reduce the financial burden on their generally poor club members. In the above discussion about why ethnic minorities in the UK don't take up cycling, no one seems to have addressed that money might play a role, but it surely must do in the deprived communities in which many ethnic groups live, especially where theft is rife too.

On the topic of encouraging cycling in Asian ethnic communities in the UK, this is worth reading; one realises there is a cultural aspect too:
http:bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf//

There are quite a few academic studies that have looked at how Black African Americans are actively excluded from cycling in certain parts of the country because of racism and the remnants of Jim Crow - simply put that to cycle around certain areas of the country as a Black person, especially a Black man, is still dangerous. Having to deal with bad drivers is scary enough when you're white, imagine having to deal with bad racist drivers...

Yes but does this apply to the UK? I mean it may do but I've never heard it said and I do know a few (only a few) non white cyclists.

bobmcstuff

rick_chasey said:

I think most white blokes found cycling clubs fairly intimidating when they started at the best of times, so presumably if you're not that it is even more intimidating.

It's also a sport that is easier to do in the 'burbs and in the country - city centres are a schlep to get out of for a bike ride, so presumably that is a factor too.

It's not an inclusive sport - hell, I spend lots of time moaning about n00bs to the sport on here (even if I have helped run various n00b club runs in the past).

Oh yeah for sure. We only have maybe 3 or 4 women regularly riding with the club as well.

That and when you go on a club ride you see a lot of decent looking bikes, which is fairly exclusionary to anyone who isn't middle class. People will talk about a cheap bike being <£2k, and a £1k C2W bike is very definitely "entry level". Clearly it is possible to cycle to a high level on a £300 b-twin Triban but you'd stand out a bit on any club ride I've been on.

bobmcstuff

DeVlaeminck said:

above_the_cows said:

jimmyjams said:

Re cycling and black communities,
I worked for several years for an American company, about half the staff being Americans who had come over to work in Europe. Amongst them were about 8 keen cyclists with whom I rode from time to time, 3 women, 5 men, one of whom was black.
And he told me that in the USA there are so-called Black Cycling Clubs, originally formed because African-Americans trying to get into cycling were sometimes discriminated against or even threatened by some of the white cycling community because of the colour of their skin. Nowadays the clubs are open for anyone to join but in several places their members are still predominantly black or hispanic.
I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, I just thought it interesting to hear how things developed there. Evidently there is a definite interest in cycling among African-Americans.

The Black Cycling Clubs also recognised that good quality bikes and kit costs money, and so the clubs sought sponsorship to reduce the financial burden on their generally poor club members. In the above discussion about why ethnic minorities in the UK don't take up cycling, no one seems to have addressed that money might play a role, but it surely must do in the deprived communities in which many ethnic groups live, especially where theft is rife too.

On the topic of encouraging cycling in Asian ethnic communities in the UK, this is worth reading; one realises there is a cultural aspect too:
http:bowlesgreen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Ethnic-Minority-Cycling-Report-BG.pdf//

There are quite a few academic studies that have looked at how Black African Americans are actively excluded from cycling in certain parts of the country because of racism and the remnants of Jim Crow - simply put that to cycle around certain areas of the country as a Black person, especially a Black man, is still dangerous. Having to deal with bad drivers is scary enough when you're white, imagine having to deal with bad racist drivers...

Yes but does this apply to the UK? I mean it may do but I've never heard it said and I do know a few (only a few) non white cyclists.

My gut feeling is that riding around on a decent bike wearing all the kit you would probably not get treated any different to anyone else - after all, most drivers seem to hate cyclists already...

As with the news reports of black men driving nice cars getting stopped a lot, you could imagine that black cyclists may be disproportionately stopped by police. But I have absolutely no evidence for that.

Just speaking for myself, one of my best mates is half Malaysian and we cycle together weekly, more or less - I have never seen him get racially abused on the bike but I have unfortunately been with him when he's been racially abused in the pub etc on several occasions. It's kinda hard when someone is wearing full cycling gear and you're driving past them to tell, and then to decide to do something, I think.

daniel_b

bobmcstuff said:

As with the news reports of black men driving nice cars getting stopped a lot, you could imagine that black cyclists may be disproportionately stopped by police. But I have absolutely no evidence for that.

I watched/read this with disbelief/anger in recent weeks.
https://road.cc/content/news/268777-metropolitan-police-officer-does-stop-and-search-black-cyclists-network-founder

I myself am 'mixed race' being half Mauritian, but I am fortunate enough that the club I ride with is VERY inclusive, and welcoming to any gender, or background, and boasts a 25% female membership, and loads of newbies coming through which is awesome.

I'm volunteering at a hill climb for the club on Sunday, be great to meet a ton more cyclists and talk bikes :-)

tailwindhome

The view from Morkovs seat camera

https://youtu.be/dEVHNpk2ZEQ

m.r.m.

All bikes should have front cameras as well integrated in the headtube. Just imagine if you could get pov views from whomever you liked.

ddraver

I really do like those...

Can't understand why so many people have a downer about them.