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Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

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  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,445
    That's true except we aren't inadvertently saying the n word and dismissing black people as some form of sub species (my grandparents could be quite bad at times!).

    An accidental mix up of he/she seems, while offensive to the recipient, surely a genuine mistake - like if someone forgets your name?
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,111

    I think acceptance is vital - currently I think a lot of trans people get serious abuse, being beat up etc, on a very regular basis.

    I think the challenge is what shape and size that acceptance is.

    A lot of the rub and (reasonable) resistance I see is around people who's sex is male who are entering female only spaces. That poses a challenge for women who themselves have their own discriminatory issues - from men!

    I think there also need to be a recognition that gender identity is important not just to trans people but also to people who identify with the sex they're born with, and so it is about finding a compromise.

    Some of the trans stuff can come across as a load of men wanting to intrude into the female only world, insisting tampons packaging doesn't refer to women specifically and things like that.

    At the same time, trans people are having a rough time in society, and that clearly needs to change. A lot of them are at a high risk of violence etc and often find themselves excluded from parts of society. That isn't fair nor right.

    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    I don't think you need to have witnessed child birth to find that a bridge too far, but yes.

    There does seem to be a strain of thought that the correct response to the very real abuse of trans people is to fight intolerance with more intolerance. An absolutist condemnation of anything that is not wholly and unambiguously pro-trans seems unlikely to encourage acceptance.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,111

    I wonder if there were many gender fluid people around in Edward Colston's day and if they were accepted back then?

    Probably. There are a few historical examples of people 'passing' but for obvious reasons it might not have been a good idea to advertise it, or record it for posterity.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,042

    It'll be interesting to see if transgender men and women do become fully accepted as men and women socially as well as in law.

    By coincidence I was in the pub the other night (the Jonty Farmer if anyone knows Derby) and one of the guys I was with said he'd matched with a transgender woman on tinder and and gone on a date with them.

    The woman was open about being transgender on her profile - I'm so out of touch with the modern world I've never actually seen tinder but I assume you have a profile - this guy knew before the date anyway thought about it and decided he was happy to date a transgender woman.

    6 pints in they went back to his and get naked and to this guy's surprise his date has a co ck and ba lls - the guy assumed transgender meant post op - I suppose that's when you really find out what your beliefs are.

    Sounds like a social etiquette minefield - did you carry on regardless?
    At my age if it had been me I wouldn't have been able to after 6 pints.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • fenix said:

    It's amazing to think that the statue could still be up in 2020.

    I'm glad it's gone now - absolutely indefensible to have a statue telling us what a great man a slave trader is.

    And as a side note Olusoga's a House in Time is a fascinating if sometimes uncomfortable watch.

    I agree. Maybe it could be replaced by a statue of Galileo Galilae or Ayrton Senna or someone.
    I'm not a racist! My f'in car is black!
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,137


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,828 Lives Here
    edited 11 June


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 3,254


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    Yes, but it's about their right to have babies, even thought they don't have wombs...
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,137


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,828 Lives Here
    edited 11 June


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,628
    You didn't realise the physical difference until then?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,828 Lives Here

    You didn't realise the physical difference until then?

    *eyeroll*

    no it was an immaculate conception.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,137


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,828 Lives Here


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,162
    Trans rights is just another issue where women can't win. Complain about competing against a male turned female two years ago that has had 25 years of testosterone you are a terrible person. Complain about the 6ft guy in a dress in the nightclub whose first step into transforming was having a shave trying to use the female toilets and you are an abomination. When in reality you are just a bit concerned for your safety.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,917


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,445


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    Caesarian births don’t count either.
    I can’t play cricket very well and am too old anyway.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,917
    morstar said:


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    Caesarian births don’t count either.
    I can’t play cricket very well and am too old anyway.
    I know women who have had Caesarian who have been shunned at mother and baby groups for not being “real” mothers

    My missus could not breastfeed with number one and was hated on by employees of the NHS and made to feel unworthy. Now I am no medical professional but am still not convinced that was best for the baby or her own mental health.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,106

    morstar said:


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    Caesarian births don’t count either.
    I can’t play cricket very well and am too old anyway.
    I know women who have had Caesarian who have been shunned at mother and baby groups for not being “real” mothers

    My missus could not breastfeed with number one and was hated on by employees of the NHS and made to feel unworthy. Now I am no medical professional but am still not convinced that was best for the baby or her own mental health.
    Yes, there's tremendous pressure to breastfeed and if unable, for whatever reason you're looked down on. Luckily our NCT group were really good when we had our first as some couldn't feed and others deliberately chose to combination feed so dad's could share the feeding duty. Midwives were terrible, but the health visitor was really good.

    There's also pressure to not take much pain relief during labour and to also use the birthing suite rather than go to the labour ward.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,445

    morstar said:


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    Caesarian births don’t count either.
    I can’t play cricket very well and am too old anyway.
    I know women who have had Caesarian who have been shunned at mother and baby groups for not being “real” mothers

    My missus could not breastfeed with number one and was hated on by employees of the NHS and made to feel unworthy. Now I am no medical professional but am still not convinced that was best for the baby or her own mental health.
    Gotta love herd mentality.
    That sounds rubbish.
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,445
    The 'breastapo'
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,593


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    Does that put you squarely in the J K Rowling camp with anyone else with a modicum of common sense?
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,917

    The 'breastapo'

    Better than our attempt of the breastmilk nazis,
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,917
    elbowloh said:

    morstar said:


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    Caesarian births don’t count either.
    I can’t play cricket very well and am too old anyway.
    I know women who have had Caesarian who have been shunned at mother and baby groups for not being “real” mothers

    My missus could not breastfeed with number one and was hated on by employees of the NHS and made to feel unworthy. Now I am no medical professional but am still not convinced that was best for the baby or her own mental health.
    Yes, there's tremendous pressure to breastfeed and if unable, for whatever reason you're looked down on. Luckily our NCT group were really good when we had our first as some couldn't feed and others deliberately chose to combination feed so dad's could share the feeding duty. Midwives were terrible, but the health visitor was really good.

    There's also pressure to not take much pain relief during labour and to also use the birthing suite rather than go to the labour ward.
    He came 8 weeks early and it would have felt a little weird turning up at NCT with the 👶
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,828 Lives Here


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    Does that put you squarely in the J K Rowling camp with anyone else with a modicum of common sense?
    Yeah.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 17,909
    edited 11 June


    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.

    Most people on this forum will have been through this and those that haven't are unlikely to appreciated the view that childbirth leads to enlightenment, so it is one I would hold back if I were you.
    You don't think the process of pregnancy and childbirth demonstrates a fairly fundamental difference in sexes?

    I certainly do. Academic it is not.
    By saying that you are saying that an infertile woman is not a woman. Or a woman without kids isn't really a woman. Or a post menopause women isn't a women. It's just not a place you should be going and I'm not even getting into the trans discussion.



    Oh I didn't mean it like that.

    More, if you thought it was an academic thing and that there isn't any difference in the sex then experiencing that on either side will likely change your mind.

    That's a fairly enormous leap you've made there BB.
    I was trying to be helpful. That is the way a lot of people will take it irrespective of whether it is how you mean it.
    If people struggle with the fact that only one sex gives birth and the other doesn't, then that's quite a fundamental problem.

    Not everyone can conceive, sure, but everyone was born.
    I think your hating on both women and the trans community have just ended any hope of playing cricket for England
    I am amazed that nobody has made the obvious joke about having his middle stump removed.
    Obviously folks fear the consequences, so he has kept his bails in place.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,111
    Any guesses what TAF Johnson means by this?

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,042
    You can see him laughing as he says it - even he can't believe the public fall for his BS.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,162
    Look at the Honours list and a fair few of the vaccine honours went to women. The landscape has changed in the medical and research professions with high percentages of women in senior posts and employment. This is no bad thing.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 17,909
    john80 said:

    Look at the Honours list and a fair few of the vaccine honours went to women. The landscape has changed in the medical and research professions with high percentages of women in senior posts and employment. This is no bad thing.

    Do they now come with a 10 year Twitter warranty?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
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