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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,604
    rjsterry said:

    Any guesses what TAF Johnson means by this?

    He really is going bald at the front, faffing around with his quasi combover will only make him look more of a tvvat when he accepts reality and stops hiding it
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,683 Lives Here

    rjsterry said:

    Any guesses what TAF Johnson means by this?

    He really is going bald at the front, faffing around with his quasi combover will only make him look more of a tvvat when he accepts reality and stops hiding it
    Getting more like his hero, Trump
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,425

    john80 said:

    Look at the Honours list and a fair few of the vaccine honours went to women. The landscape has changed in the medical and research professions with high percentages of women in senior posts and employment. This is no bad thing.

    Do they now come with a 10 year Twitter warranty?
    The percentage of women posting stupid stuff on Twitter is probably not high in these professions or gender. They just need to let the gender fluid post whatever they like without challenge😃
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    edited 15 June
    Wrong thread!
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078
    This was quite a balanced response from Tyrone Mings (a footballer who actually communicates quite well) to Priti's criticsm of taking the knee.

    Tyrone Mings was also asked about taking the knee and comments from home secretary Priti Patel, who does not support the gesture and says fans have the right to boo if they wish too.

    "To the home secretary I don’t really have a direct message," said Mings.

    "We spoke and she invited me on a zoom call once, where she seemed so interested and engrossed in players point of view and what we could do more to tackle these sort of issues.

    "At the same time everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The home secretary is one of many, many people who oppose us taking the knee or refuse to defend it. We have our own set of beliefs and think what we can do to help as players to do what we can to help and stand up for what we believe in.

    "And understandably when you have such strong beliefs we will have opposition to that so we spoke about it a lot.

    "We spoke about trying to educate and inform the minority who refuse to acknowledge why we are taking the knee and want to boo it. But at the same time there was a hugely positive reaction to taking the knee as well and I don’t think that should be overshadowed."
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  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,218
    I doubt this will get much of a reception around here, as it's pretty unfashionable.

    Poorer white pupils neglected for decades.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

    Mr Halfon described it as a "major social injustice" that so little attention had been paid to how white pupils on free school meals underachieved compared with free school meals pupils from most other ethnic groups.

    "If you think it's about poverty, then it doesn't explain why most other ethnic groups do much better," he said.
    At GCSE, in 2019, 18% of white British pupils on free meals achieved grade 4 in English and maths, compared with 23% for the average for pupils on free meals
    For university entry, 16% of white British pupils on free meals get places, compared with 59% of black African pupils on free meals, 59% of Bangladeshi pupils on free meals and 32% of black Caribbean pupils on free meals.

    The committee described "white privilege" as the idea of "societal privilege that benefits white people over other ethnic groups" - and said "privilege is the very opposite to what disadvantaged white children" experience.


    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 17,791

    I doubt this will get much of a reception around here, as it's pretty unfashionable.

    Poorer white pupils neglected for decades.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

    Mr Halfon described it as a "major social injustice" that so little attention had been paid to how white pupils on free school meals underachieved compared with free school meals pupils from most other ethnic groups.

    "If you think it's about poverty, then it doesn't explain why most other ethnic groups do much better," he said.
    At GCSE, in 2019, 18% of white British pupils on free meals achieved grade 4 in English and maths, compared with 23% for the average for pupils on free meals
    For university entry, 16% of white British pupils on free meals get places, compared with 59% of black African pupils on free meals, 59% of Bangladeshi pupils on free meals and 32% of black Caribbean pupils on free meals.

    The committee described "white privilege" as the idea of "societal privilege that benefits white people over other ethnic groups" - and said "privilege is the very opposite to what disadvantaged white children" experience.


    If he doesn't think it's mainly about poverty, why is he only looking at those on free meals?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here

    I doubt this will get much of a reception around here, as it's pretty unfashionable.

    Poorer white pupils neglected for decades.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

    Mr Halfon described it as a "major social injustice" that so little attention had been paid to how white pupils on free school meals underachieved compared with free school meals pupils from most other ethnic groups.

    "If you think it's about poverty, then it doesn't explain why most other ethnic groups do much better," he said.
    At GCSE, in 2019, 18% of white British pupils on free meals achieved grade 4 in English and maths, compared with 23% for the average for pupils on free meals
    For university entry, 16% of white British pupils on free meals get places, compared with 59% of black African pupils on free meals, 59% of Bangladeshi pupils on free meals and 32% of black Caribbean pupils on free meals.

    The committee described "white privilege" as the idea of "societal privilege that benefits white people over other ethnic groups" - and said "privilege is the very opposite to what disadvantaged white children" experience.


    So this is absolutely an issue and one I've been working on with other people in my industry to improve.

    I object to the framing of the problem as related to other ethnic group in some kind of zero sum problem.

    Both challenges can exist alongside each other, and each challenge requires its own response.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,772

    I doubt this will get much of a reception around here, as it's pretty unfashionable.

    Poorer white pupils neglected for decades.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

    Mr Halfon described it as a "major social injustice" that so little attention had been paid to how white pupils on free school meals underachieved compared with free school meals pupils from most other ethnic groups.

    "If you think it's about poverty, then it doesn't explain why most other ethnic groups do much better," he said.
    At GCSE, in 2019, 18% of white British pupils on free meals achieved grade 4 in English and maths, compared with 23% for the average for pupils on free meals
    For university entry, 16% of white British pupils on free meals get places, compared with 59% of black African pupils on free meals, 59% of Bangladeshi pupils on free meals and 32% of black Caribbean pupils on free meals.

    The committee described "white privilege" as the idea of "societal privilege that benefits white people over other ethnic groups" - and said "privilege is the very opposite to what disadvantaged white children" experience.


    I don't think there's much doubt that the pattern exists, but far less certainty on why. I suspect it is not neatly attributable to a single cause. As one person pointed out, if the pattern has been around for decades, it is unlikely to be solely caused by an idea that's only gained wider support in the last ten years.
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    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 8,988
    What has a qualification for free school meals got to do with academic ability?

    Why no correlation with the number of McDonalds meals consumed p.a. for example?

    Whodathunk that LFFs from families of LFFs would not do well in school?
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,594
    It doesn't, hence there is no comparison against those who are not on free school meals.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    edited 22 June
    So the report claims there is an "industry" around helping disadvantaged non-white pupils but the same is not available to white pupils on free school meals, which I find hard to belie but it also makes the point that
    terms such as white privilege – defined as white people benefiting from particular advantages in society – may have contributed towards systemic neglect of white disadvantaged communities


    Now, I don't actually think that is happening, again this is that zero-sum thinking I refer to, it's not an either/or question, but I DO think that the "white privilege" term isn't necessarily that helpful. (Ask a teacher about children and I'd be very surprised if they're differentiating much by race either .

    It's an import from the US which has a different racial dynamic - given vast swathes of it was founded around a basis of slavery - and so the term doesn't apply in the same way.

    What I think is a bit disingenuous about the whole thing is that the framing of these reports suggests it's because the kids are white that they're being left behind and not because they're from hard up families, which has always been the biggest barrier in Britain for progression.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,604
    they use free school meals to define poverty and then you can analyse sub sets.

    Ask any teacher who works in these communities and they will tell you the answer which is that the the white kids come from generations of not placing a value on education and the immigrants who see it as a ladder out of their current situation.

    Of course that pretty much gives you an unsolvabe (or very hard to solve) problem
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078
    edited 22 June
    I know its from the Guardian, but:

    "The report faced immediate opposition, including from among the committee’s own members. Kim Johnson, the Labour MP for Liverpool Riverside and a member of the committee, said she disowned the report and had submitted her own alternative version, which was voted down by the Tory majority.

    “I’m not happy with quite a lot of information contained in it,” she told the Guardian. “I’m not happy about the whole section on white privilege. The inquiry cherrypicked data. I think they were trying to create a bit of a culture war.”"


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jun/21/tory-mps-accused-of-adding-fuel-to-culture-war-in-education-report
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  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078
    Also this:

    Maurice Mcleod, chief executive of the thinktank Race on the Agenda, rejected the report’s conclusions. “Today’s education committee report is just the latest government salvo in the culture war it seems hellbent on stoking,” he said.

    “Instead of honestly accepting that children from all backgrounds have been badly let down by decades of neglect, this report attempts to create unhelpful divides between children based on their race.”
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    edited 22 June
    All the macro stats on wealth inequality, social mobility etc say it's got steadily worse since the 80s and has accelerated this decade - now more than a long time who your parents are is more important than your ability and hard work.

    So if you are going for the 'red wall' voter, why not find a way to blame it on "wokeism" and the left (who have not been in power for a long time) rather than their own policies that favour inequality.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 17,791
    Just seen Robert Halfon on GB News (thought I'd see if it has got any better).

    The report seems to come to good conclusions about what needs to be done to improve things outside London, but the takeaway from the interview was "We want to hear your thoughts on the teaching of white privilege in schools".

    Couple of points from the report:

    "Dr Alex Gibson and Professor Sheena Asthana, of the University of Plymouth, said that ethnic groups are “distributed unevenly across the country” so the Department’s “highly aggregated” data is “no use” in teasing out geographic factors. The Department’s data is often not available below the national level when broken down by ethnicity and FSM-eligibility. Nevertheless, it is possible to form a picture of differences in pupil population and educational attainment."

    "Geographic disparities also affect children from ethnic minorities who live in leftbehind areas. ... the report found that “Nearly 70% of all the social mobility ‘hotspot’ success stories are in London and the South East”, while there “are none in the North East, Yorkshire and the Humber, and the West Midlands”. "

    This could just as easily be a "levelling up" report focusing on those areas that have been left behind.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078

    All the macro stats on wealth inequality, social mobility etc say it's got steadily worse since the 80s and has accelerated this decade - now more than a long time who your parents are is more important than your ability and hard work.

    So if you are going for the 'red wall' voter, why not find a way to blame it on "wokeism" and the left (who have not been in power for a long time) rather than their own policies that favour inequality.

    Indeed. It's not like the Conservatives have taken sole power over education since 2010 or anything.

    Can't even blame LEAs either due to the number of academies now.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 29,628
    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 1,005
    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,628
    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076

    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
    Surely it is about both race and equality. I never understand why it is hard for people to appreciate that there is a discrimination. For example, a privileged white man might feel the opposite of privileged when embarking on a career in childcare.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    edited 22 June

    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
    Surely it is about both race and equality. I never understand why it is hard for people to appreciate that there is a discrimination. For example, a privileged white man might feel the opposite of privileged when embarking on a career in childcare.
    Can anyone here refer to a moment either in their own schooling or in their child's where there is a bias against "white privilege" in schools? I feel what they're describing is nothing about race and entirely about class but they're turning it into one.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076

    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
    Surely it is about both race and equality. I never understand why it is hard for people to appreciate that there is a discrimination. For example, a privileged white man might feel the opposite of privileged when embarking on a career in childcare.
    Can anyone here refer to a moment either in their own schooling or in their child's where there is a bias against "white privilege" in schools? I feel what they're describing is nothing about race and entirely about class but they're turning it into one.
    I once looked at a scholarship for something and realised I wasn't eligible for any of them based on my race and sex, so gave up on the idea.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here
    ...really? Where? and on what basis? They're not allowed to ask anything (or at the very least you're not obliged to disclose) any of those as a criteria AFAIK.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076
    And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not claiming in any way to be have had it hard race wise, but you asked for an example.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,313

    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
    Surely it is about both race and equality. I never understand why it is hard for people to appreciate that there is a discrimination. For example, a privileged white man might feel the opposite of privileged when embarking on a career in childcare.
    Can anyone here refer to a moment either in their own schooling or in their child's where there is a bias against "white privilege" in schools? I feel what they're describing is nothing about race and entirely about class but they're turning it into one.
    Yes, well education anyway. When a uni gave a lower offer to one of my football team on the basis her dad is Sri Lankan. She said herself she didn't think it was right but she wasn't going to turn it down.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,410 Lives Here

    Pross said:

    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I've said it somewhere before but the term 'white privilege' seems very unhelpful if you are trying to bring about equality. It feels designed to create greater division. It may be deliberately antagonistic but I'm not sure what it achieves.

    I think it can be helpful to examine the role of one's own good fortune in life. I think it's stupid to write off and completely ignore other's experience based on those good fortunes.

    I'll generally have had better dealings with the UK police, rarely have felt out of place (at least based on my appearance) in the country of my birth and never experienced anyone calling me a racial slur.
    Yes, but if you were living on the bread line and barely getting by would you appreciate being classed as privileged because you were born white?
    That's the point of this report isn't it? To make it about race when it is about inequality.
    Surely it is about both race and equality. I never understand why it is hard for people to appreciate that there is a discrimination. For example, a privileged white man might feel the opposite of privileged when embarking on a career in childcare.
    Can anyone here refer to a moment either in their own schooling or in their child's where there is a bias against "white privilege" in schools? I feel what they're describing is nothing about race and entirely about class but they're turning it into one.
    Yes, well education anyway. When a uni gave a lower offer to one of my football team on the basis her dad is Sri Lankan. She said herself she didn't think it was right but she wasn't going to turn it down.

    What does her offer have to do with you?
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