The big Coronavirus thread
Comments
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It is classic chin behaviour to overstate how bad it'd be if the queen snuffed it as a result of corona.surrey_commuter said:tailwindhome said:
Fair play he has put his money where his mouth is on herd immunity. Let’s all hope the fat sod does not die and Raab takes over.
If you look at select groups who have access to blanket testing, senior members of royal family and Ministers it could give us an idea of the true spread. I would rather these tests were saved for frontline medical staff.
I wouldn't be surprised if anyone who has contact with the queen is tested *regularly*
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Just to state my own opinion on economy versus death rate, which I have done previously. I, like most on here it appears, agree that there has to be a trade off between 'keeping things going' and accepting that deaths will occur and in particular amongst those who are already struggling healthwise. However, I think there is a balance somewhere between the Coopster 'carry on as normal and let the weak die' approach and a full on shutdown and I believe that if our current rules are properly enforced we are pretty close to that optimum with the support measures in place (even though I'm in that relatively small group of people who have very limited protection from those measures).
The problem with just leaving the virus to take its course with no attempt to control it is that it will not only result in those most badly affected by the virus dying but also lots of others that the NHS will no longer be able to support properly who might otherwise go on to live long and productive lives e.g. if a hospital is having to cancel cancer treatments or planned operations as Covid is draining all the resources or people are being discharged early to free up space we could be losing younger people who would have gone on to recover fully. I suppose the way around that in Coopster land is not to even bother treating anyone who gets the virus and just go to collect any bodies from houses when required, I have to admit it would probably be the system that impacts least on both the NHS and the economy but I'm not sure what sort of human would consider it the best option.0 -
The UK's approach has, at least, allowed for the creation of more ventilators. I think the EU's approach is just to exercise buying power. That's not saying the UK shouldn't have joined with the EU to do that as well.rick_chasey said:Sheesh.
Worth not forgetting the UK gov't excuses for not being part of the EU ventilator purchasing scheme. Seems their "not seen the email" excuse is in fact, as bad an excuse as you think it is.
Sounds like it was overruled by no.10 as it was against its Brexit policy.
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I am very comfortable that the UK government has allowed UK industry to step into the gap to manufactor ventilators, anti-body tests, medical supplies, hand sanitiser, etc.TheBigBean said:
The UK's approach has, at least, allowed for the creation of more ventilators. I think the EU's approach is just to exercise buying power. That's not saying the UK shouldn't have joined with the EU to do that as well.rick_chasey said:Sheesh.
Worth not forgetting the UK gov't excuses for not being part of the EU ventilator purchasing scheme. Seems their "not seen the email" excuse is in fact, as bad an excuse as you think it is.
Sounds like it was overruled by no.10 as it was against its Brexit policy.
With every government shaking their own money tree as physically as possible, this means we can reject calls to supply financial support to those EU goverments that have found they were shaking a plum tree.0 -
BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.0 -
And bloody unfair it is too.Longshot said:coopster_the_1st said:
Off the top of my head a recent contentious policy suggestion - old people who require care home care will have to sell their homes to pay for it before the state starts paying
Most already do!
Someone spends their whole life being frugal to keep a roof over their head and wants to pass it on to their kids gets it taken. Whilst another person who has spent any money they had gets looked after.
The older I get, the better I was.0 -
Well at least we now know that he is a planner contrary to popular belief. He spent the entire GE campaign in self-isolation to rehearse.tailwindhome said:0 -
We are all in this together now.capt_slog said:
And bloody unfair it is too.Longshot said:coopster_the_1st said:
Off the top of my head a recent contentious policy suggestion - old people who require care home care will have to sell their homes to pay for it before the state starts paying
Most already do!
Someone spends their whole life being frugal to keep a roof over their head and wants to pass it on to their kids gets it taken. Whilst another person who has spent any money they had gets looked after.
If we are deploying all this additional spending to for the old and vulnerable they are going to have to contribute what they can as well.
Related to those on pensions I suspect the triple lock will go.
We can also expect pension tax relief to be fully or partially removed.
A ditching of the fuel tax freeze.
Really, any tax policy that was seen unpaletable because it risks votes in December will now be the low hanging fruit when we come out of the other side of this.0 -
I guess it depends on whether expanding an existing factory or re-tasking another manufacturer gets the quickest results though and lets face it, an existing manufacturer seeing a company like Dyson coming into the market is going to get nervous in case they decide to stay there and provide long-term competition.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.0 -
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
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Things can always be done better, especially when something has had to be rushed through under pressure in a crisis.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.0 -
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.0 -
I know RC has posted this data already, but there's something about seeing in on the cover of the NYT.
We're watching history being formed.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
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This is true and should always be considered when reflecting on performance. I do think the government should have been ahead of me given my complete lack of knowledge in pandemics and viruses. It is therefore a little disappointing when they finally take over the Excel centre and start ordering medical kit for the healthcare workers weeks after I wrote that they should be doing that in this thread.Pross said:
Things can always be done better, especially when something has had to be rushed through under pressure in a crisis.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
As far as I know they don't seem to have dealt with the issue of how people are going to get to hospital when they don't have cars (my suggestion was to convert taxis). They could also introduce some nifty triage, so people know where to go and when.
Finally, I still think that making a bucket load of masks and encouraging people to wear them may have meant the lockdown didn't need to be so severe.
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A paid holiday where you can't do anything sounds a bit **** to be honest.morstar said:
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
Many with families are now stuck looking after kids and wouldn't be able to get additional jobs.0 -
You're probably right although I suspect most of these things are going on in the background well before we see the details. That said, as SC has said many times they should have used the advanced notice from China more effectively to prepare although we seem to get an annual virus warning out of Asia that usually doesn't become an issue so had they spent billions preparing only for nothing to come of it I suspect criticism would have been forthcoming there too. No cost or limited cost strategies could have been put in place though.TheBigBean said:
This is true and should always be considered when reflecting on performance. I do think the government should have been ahead of me given my complete lack of knowledge in pandemics and viruses. It is therefore a little disappointing when they finally take over the Excel centre and start ordering medical kit for the healthcare workers weeks after I wrote that they should be doing that in this thread.Pross said:
Things can always be done better, especially when something has had to be rushed through under pressure in a crisis.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
As far as I know they don't seem to have dealt with the issue of how people are going to get to hospital when they don't have cars (my suggestion was to convert taxis). They could also introduce some nifty triage, so people know where to go and when.
Finally, I still think that making a bucket load of masks and encouraging people to wear them may have meant the lockdown didn't need to be so severe.0 -
People will riot if they have to stay in the house
It's just a paid holiday
Ok.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TheBigBean said:
The UK's approach has, at least, allowed for the creation of more ventilators. I think the EU's approach is just to exercise buying power. That's not saying the UK shouldn't have joined with the EU to do that as well.rick_chasey said:Sheesh.
Worth not forgetting the UK gov't excuses for not being part of the EU ventilator purchasing scheme. Seems their "not seen the email" excuse is in fact, as bad an excuse as you think it is.
Sounds like it was overruled by no.10 as it was against its Brexit policy.
The EU approach has actually become one of each country within the EU being largely on their own. In fact, in Italy they are now receiving plane loads of medical equipment from Russia, which is classic Putin exploiting the situation for his own gain, but if Italy had been receiving the help it needed from other EU countries they would have been able to politely decline the Russian offer of help.0 -
It has always been a truism that you find out who your friends are in times of adversity.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The paid holiday was the terminology of the person I replied to. I guess I should have put it in quotations.Jeremy.89 said:
A paid holiday where you can't do anything sounds a bit **** to be honest.morstar said:
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
Many with families are now stuck looking after kids and wouldn't be able to get additional jobs.
Don't get me wrong, I think the government help has been really important. I did feel the 80% and ceiling was too generous though. Although, for context, I don't have the really high fixed costs associated with city living or just starting out in life.
For me, the 80% furlough would be inconvenient and force some restraint but otherwise quite manageable. I could manage with less if it came to it.
This is all part of the nuances of balancing the economy and public health.
Which goes back to the whole issue of this not being black and white or solvable with a bit of harsh sounding rhetoric.
As for it being a bit sh*t. That just is what it is. If you've just lost your work and are isolating, would you rather do it with 80% of your salary and a future return relatively secured or the stress of claiming benefits when the system is swamped?0 -
The point of the 80% (importantly with an upper limit) is that companies don't have to lay people off, people can afford to live, and when things get back, companies don't have to completely start from scratch.
Collapsing everyone's finances because otherwise it doesn't seem fair would be a seriously bad call.
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80% is probably a fair reflection of most people's committed outgoings each month (mortgage, bills, loans, food etc.).0
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Hancock tested positive too now.0
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Was going to say, spot the guy not having to home school. Our two are taking up the vast majority of one parent's time. That said, it's apparent from the online chatter that some are putting less effort into this than others.Jeremy.89 said:
A paid holiday where you can't do anything sounds a bit **** to be honest.morstar said:
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
Many with families are now stuck looking after kids and wouldn't be able to get additional jobs.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
And the same as French dole payments ( for 1.5 or 2 years)Pross said:80% is probably a fair reflection of most people's committed outgoings each month (mortgage, bills, loans, food etc.).
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Already addressed that it’s not my terminology but, I was talking about the finances.rjsterry said:
Was going to say, spot the guy not having to home school. Our two are taking up the vast majority of one parent's time. That said, it's apparent from the online chatter that some are putting less effort into this than others.Jeremy.89 said:
A paid holiday where you can't do anything sounds a bit **** to be honest.morstar said:
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
Many with families are now stuck looking after kids and wouldn't be able to get additional jobs.
If you are at home with kids, you are at home with kids.
80% salary makes it easier than benefits claiming I assume.
This is starting to feel like politics with deliberate misinterpretation.
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I have been hoping that the government has been doing more than people realise, and like during wars, I suspect a lot of subtle strategies are being employed, but not announced. For example, the daily ratcheting up of lock down levels I suspect was advised by a behavioural psychologist, but the government can't really tell people that.Pross said:
You're probably right although I suspect most of these things are going on in the background well before we see the details. That said, as SC has said many times they should have used the advanced notice from China more effectively to prepare although we seem to get an annual virus warning out of Asia that usually doesn't become an issue so had they spent billions preparing only for nothing to come of it I suspect criticism would have been forthcoming there too. No cost or limited cost strategies could have been put in place though.TheBigBean said:
This is true and should always be considered when reflecting on performance. I do think the government should have been ahead of me given my complete lack of knowledge in pandemics and viruses. It is therefore a little disappointing when they finally take over the Excel centre and start ordering medical kit for the healthcare workers weeks after I wrote that they should be doing that in this thread.Pross said:
Things can always be done better, especially when something has had to be rushed through under pressure in a crisis.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
As far as I know they don't seem to have dealt with the issue of how people are going to get to hospital when they don't have cars (my suggestion was to convert taxis). They could also introduce some nifty triage, so people know where to go and when.
Finally, I still think that making a bucket load of masks and encouraging people to wear them may have meant the lockdown didn't need to be so severe.
So, I have not been super critical of the government as I hoped they were preparing behind the scenes, but then I hear stories about a shortage of medical equipment for doctors, and I start wondering what they have been doing.
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For clarification,
Coopster said it should be a loan.
I didn’t really agree but did feel that 80% was more generous than it needed to be.
Clearly some think it’s about right.
Homeschooling or not is irrelevant to the government support.
FWIW, I am very grateful my kids are at a self sufficient age. Especially if we do start getting ill.0
