The big Coronavirus thread
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Remember that to comply with the furlough rules an employee cannot undertake anything relating to work so an employer can't legitimately play the system by furloughing employees he still needs. Obviously, as with any system brought in to help people out, some will use it to their own ends though.
As I've said before one of my wife's employees walked out of his shift on health grounds expecting to be able to claim 80%, wouldn't listen when told it didn't apply and then was all apologies the next day saying he was stressed after presumably reading up on things. Him and his partner who also works for the company have now found a way to play it. She has 'developed symptoms' so has to self-isolate for 7 days and as he lives in the same house has to have 14 days off. Could be genuine of course but the timing smells fishy.
From my reading of the rules for self-employed they do seem overly generous but that could be me misinterpreting them. As I understand it they can claim 80% of profits up to £50k based on past accounts but whereas employees have to stop working the self-employed can continue doing some work and still claim the full entitlement. No doubt I'll get corrected. That said, having to wait until June to claim is a big problem for them.0 -
I thought the same thing, so as it was gradually introduced and not so much of a big shock.TheBigBean said:
For example, the daily ratcheting up of lock down levels I suspect was advised by a behavioural psychologist, but the government can't really tell people that.0 -
Similar with the financial measures. Let people think they're going to have no income and then when you announce they'll get 80% if their employer doesn't lay them off it sounds very attractive.elbowloh said:
I thought the same thing, so as it was gradually introduced and not so much of a big shock.TheBigBean said:
For example, the daily ratcheting up of lock down levels I suspect was advised by a behavioural psychologist, but the government can't really tell people that.0 -
Calm down, I'm only teasing. 😉. As KG points out, it's about having businesses ready to go when restrictions are lifted, rather than having to start from scratch.morstar said:
Already addressed that it’s not my terminology but, I was talking about the finances.rjsterry said:
Was going to say, spot the guy not having to home school. Our two are taking up the vast majority of one parent's time. That said, it's apparent from the online chatter that some are putting less effort into this than others.Jeremy.89 said:
A paid holiday where you can't do anything sounds a bit **** to be honest.morstar said:
Not 100% sure a loan is the right approach but I agree the 80% furlough was too generous and said so several times on here.coopster_the_1st said:
All these giveaways as an example.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
They should have been 0% interest government backed loans.
We will now have a very large number of people sitting at home treating it as a holiday on 80% pay. Make it a loan and they would try to pick up jobs where there has been a massive increase in need for.
For many people this will just be a paid holiday as the 20% reduction in income will be offset by lots of reduced costs. E.g commuting and leisure spend.
Many with families are now stuck looking after kids and wouldn't be able to get additional jobs.
If you are at home with kids, you are at home with kids.
80% salary makes it easier than benefits claiming I assume.
This is starting to feel like politics with deliberate misinterpretation.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
My wife was due to go back to work following maternity leave, but can't because they are shut. The boy was supposed to start nursery and they are planning on still charging at almost £1000 per month (this is London after all). Not sure what would do if I was furloughed and that 80% wasn't on the cards?morstar said:For clarification,
Coopster said it should be a loan.
I didn’t really agree but did feel that 80% was more generous than it needed to be.
Clearly some think it’s about right.
Homeschooling or not is irrelevant to the government support.
FWIW, I am very grateful my kids are at a self sufficient age. Especially if we do start getting ill.
Many countries across Europe have also introduced the same measures. It seems the right thing to do to me.0 -
Would have been very cheap to have lined up ventilator manufacturers, the Excel must have been empty for a month, masks would have resale value if not needed.Pross said:
You're probably right although I suspect most of these things are going on in the background well before we see the details. That said, as SC has said many times they should have used the advanced notice from China more effectively to prepare although we seem to get an annual virus warning out of Asia that usually doesn't become an issue so had they spent billions preparing only for nothing to come of it I suspect criticism would have been forthcoming there too. No cost or limited cost strategies could have been put in place though.TheBigBean said:
This is true and should always be considered when reflecting on performance. I do think the government should have been ahead of me given my complete lack of knowledge in pandemics and viruses. It is therefore a little disappointing when they finally take over the Excel centre and start ordering medical kit for the healthcare workers weeks after I wrote that they should be doing that in this thread.Pross said:
Things can always be done better, especially when something has had to be rushed through under pressure in a crisis.TheBigBean said:
There are many ways the government could have done better.rick_chasey said:BB did you see the newsnight interview with the boss of a business that makes parts for ventilators?
He was *deeply* unimpressed with what the UK gov't was doing.
Basically said: gov't has offered him no help. Was disappointed they've gone to manufactureres with no experience building ventilators rather than to existing busiensses to help them expand.
Noted that a lot of the part finishers they use have shut up shop as the 80% money guarantee made it easier for them to shut down than keep business going.
As far as I know they don't seem to have dealt with the issue of how people are going to get to hospital when they don't have cars (my suggestion was to convert taxis). They could also introduce some nifty triage, so people know where to go and when.
Finally, I still think that making a bucket load of masks and encouraging people to wear them may have meant the lockdown didn't need to be so severe.
Anyway we are talking fractional costs compared to the hundreds of billions of downside.0 -
The position now is that deaths and cases in the UK are doubling every four days (approx.) rather than every two, so the restrictions appear to be addressing spread. Italy had a similar growth rate two weeks ago.mrfpb said:
We have slowed the growth slightly - doubling number of deaths in three days rather than two. But it's too small a time frame to be really significant. Last week I thought UK deaths were looking to be over 2,000 by Friday if changes hadn't had time to affect spread. We'll see what the wekend brings!kingstongraham said:
4 more days on...kingstongraham said:6 days after the 10th death in Italy, they had 52 total deaths. 6 days after the 10th death in the UK, now 104 total deaths.
This still puts us about two weeks behind Italy, and with worse outcomes so far.
Italy were at 233, UK is at 289.0 -
That's a bit unclear isn't it - they changed the reporting time period, so the figures for the 24th were only deaths from 9am to 5pm. The last 4 days reported only contain 80 hours, so it isn't advisable to read too much into that yet.mrfpb said:
The position now is that deaths and cases in the UK are doubling every four days (approx.) rather than every two, so the restrictions appear to be addressing spread. Italy had a similar growth rate two weeks ago.mrfpb said:
We have slowed the growth slightly - doubling number of deaths in three days rather than two. But it's too small a time frame to be really significant. Last week I thought UK deaths were looking to be over 2,000 by Friday if changes hadn't had time to affect spread. We'll see what the wekend brings!kingstongraham said:
4 more days on...kingstongraham said:6 days after the 10th death in Italy, they had 52 total deaths. 6 days after the 10th death in the UK, now 104 total deaths.
This still puts us about two weeks behind Italy, and with worse outcomes so far.
Italy were at 233, UK is at 289.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Interesting chart. One of the key factors is that Democrat states are heavily urbanised whereas the republican territory is more rural.tailwindhome said:
Infection rates expected to be far higher in Democrat areas.
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But if I'm reading that right the Republicans are far less concerned in Washington than Democrats are so it seems that your level of concern is directly related to how much you trust Trump to get it right.morstar said:
Interesting chart. One of the key factors is that Democrat states are heavily urbanised whereas the republican territory is more rural.tailwindhome said:
Infection rates expected to be far higher in Democrat areas.
I suspect it's only a matter of time before Trump tries to spin the US now having more confirmed cases than anywhere else in the world as a sign that they are the greatest in terms of Covid-19. He's already celebrating it as a sign of have great their testing is.0 -
I exchanged WhatsApp messages with a former colleague who lives just outside Austin, Texas. He started to say that being in a lockdown situation isn't too difficult...... at which point I reminded him he has a swimming pool, tennis court, 4 cars to clean and a few acres to mow........0
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Measured how?rick_chasey said:So all the figures suggest this will be the worst recession this side of ww2.
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Principally the number of unemployed and what the investor community are gleaning from the activity reports and announcements.
It's gonna be so ugly i dread to think.0 -
I agree. This is really not on!TheBigBean said:So, I have not been super critical of the government as I hoped they were preparing behind the scenes, but then I hear stories about a shortage of medical equipment for doctors, and I start wondering what they have been doing.
It's not a hard job to coordinate and should not require the intervention of the health secretary to get things moving however we will have all experienced many jobworths who hide behind bureaucracy and this is the only way they would have known how to work. Anyone with a 'make it happen' approach would have been stiffled out or promoted well out of the way of supplies distribution.
You can easily imagine 5 people with clipboards getting in the way counting the items the stock person is loading into the van while the driver is sat drinking a coffee watching on.
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I think over the last few weeks you have read and described these people correctly. They would not last long in a large number of companies.Pross said:Remember that to comply with the furlough rules an employee cannot undertake anything relating to work so an employer can't legitimately play the system by furloughing employees he still needs. Obviously, as with any system brought in to help people out, some will use it to their own ends though.
As I've said before one of my wife's employees walked out of his shift on health grounds expecting to be able to claim 80%, wouldn't listen when told it didn't apply and then was all apologies the next day saying he was stressed after presumably reading up on things. Him and his partner who also works for the company have now found a way to play it. She has 'developed symptoms' so has to self-isolate for 7 days and as he lives in the same house has to have 14 days off. Could be genuine of course but the timing smells fishy.
I believe you have read this wrong.Pross said:From my reading of the rules for self-employed they do seem overly generous but that could be me misinterpreting them. As I understand it they can claim 80% of profits up to £50k based on past accounts but whereas employees have to stop working the self-employed can continue doing some work and still claim the full entitlement. No doubt I'll get corrected. That said, having to wait until June to claim is a big problem for them.
First, to be eligible your profits have to be under £50k, averaged over the last 3 years. Then any claim will be capped at £2.5k a month based on the 80% 3 year profit average. Any money you claim will be taxable
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It was the bit about them being able to continue working whilst claiming the 80% / £2500 I wasn't sure about (covered in the 2nd paragraph here https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14772 )0
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Sorry, but that is just bollocks.coopster_the_1st said:
You can easily imagine 5 people with clipboards getting in the way counting the items the stock person is loading into the van while the driver is sat drinking a coffee watching on.0 -
Imagine anything you like - doesn't make it true though does it ?coopster_the_1st said:
You can easily imagine 5 people with clipboards getting in the way counting the items the stock person is loading into the van while the driver is sat drinking a coffee watching on.0 -
Malcolm you're not alone. I share most of your views as expressed in this thread and have also noticed a certain intolerance from some. It manifested itself similarly in the Brexit threads. The forum needs a diverse set of opinions, including Coopster.thecycleclinic said:Ah your calling me names now.
Morstar as I have said we will see if the current approach works as planned and how much normality is restored when the restriction are relaxed. My worry is we wont be able to jump start the economy again easily. Why would a business hire or invest if a shutdown is expected. Cash hoarding is more likely.
However we are were we are and I am going along with it. Thinking about the future should never be a crime.
Sadly your suggesting it is.
I think I am done with this forum now. It's simply not worth expressing one's opinion anymore. We dont live in a society were free exchange of views is valued anymore.0 -
Three observations from today's permitted Devonian exercise ride (and keeping away from people strolling around town without a care in the world):
- surprised to see a caravan & camping site open & quite well used. WTF do they think "essential travel only" means?
- still lots of people going around in cars, not looking like they are on an 'essential journey': in France they are stopping people at roadblocks, checking they've got their declarations on them, and are issuing fines
- wondering how three blokes (without facemasks) I saw in the cab of the dustbin lorry are feeling about being shoved in the cab together for what is essential work
Can't help feeling that the next level of lockdown is inevitable as the figures ramp up inexorably, and this shîtshow is going to be longer than it could have been.0 -
Why are you so sure that is not how major Govt procurement contracts work?elbowloh said:
Sorry, but that is just bollocks.coopster_the_1st said:
You can easily imagine 5 people with clipboards getting in the way counting the items the stock person is loading into the van while the driver is sat drinking a coffee watching on.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Coopster is trolling and not in an amusing or productive way. Let me give you two examples of his contradictions.shortfall said:
Malcolm you're not alone. I share most of your views as expressed in this thread and have also noticed a certain intolerance from some. It manifested itself similarly in the Brexit threads. The forum needs a diverse set of opinions, including Coopster.thecycleclinic said:Ah your calling me names now.
Morstar as I have said we will see if the current approach works as planned and how much normality is restored when the restriction are relaxed. My worry is we wont be able to jump start the economy again easily. Why would a business hire or invest if a shutdown is expected. Cash hoarding is more likely.
However we are were we are and I am going along with it. Thinking about the future should never be a crime.
Sadly your suggesting it is.
I think I am done with this forum now. It's simply not worth expressing one's opinion anymore. We dont live in a society were free exchange of views is valued anymore.
His written English is very good and in no way correlates with his moronic inflammatory content.
On Brexit he literally gives no sh1ts about the economy yet on C19 it is all about the economy and let hundreds of thousands of people die because they are old.0 -
It seems that only a small percentage of people have been 'panic' buying in the sense of selfishly hoarding.
The issue in the supply chain is that lots of people are buying a bit more than normal or from a 'category' they don't normal shop from.
So all the people who never buy Basmati rice buy a kilo and the shelves are bare.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Seeing as I’m mentioned by name. Care to expand on the accusation against me?shortfall said:
Malcolm you're not alone. I share most of your views as expressed in this thread and have also noticed a certain intolerance from some. It manifested itself similarly in the Brexit threads. The forum needs a diverse set of opinions, including Coopster.thecycleclinic said:Ah your calling me names now.
Morstar as I have said we will see if the current approach works as planned and how much normality is restored when the restriction are relaxed. My worry is we wont be able to jump start the economy again easily. Why would a business hire or invest if a shutdown is expected. Cash hoarding is more likely.
However we are were we are and I am going along with it. Thinking about the future should never be a crime.
Sadly your suggesting it is.
I think I am done with this forum now. It's simply not worth expressing one's opinion anymore. We dont live in a society were free exchange of views is valued anymore.
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In other words supply is very finely tuned to people shopping in predictable ways.tailwindhome said:It seems that only a small percentage of people have been 'panic' buying in the sense of selfishly hoarding.
The issue in the supply chain is that lots of people are buying a bit more than normal or from a 'category' they don't normal shop from.
So all the people who never buy Basmati rice buy a kilo and the shelves are bare.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yuprjsterry said:
In other words supply is very finely tuned to people shopping in predictable ways.tailwindhome said:It seems that only a small percentage of people have been 'panic' buying in the sense of selfishly hoarding.
The issue in the supply chain is that lots of people are buying a bit more than normal or from a 'category' they don't normal shop from.
So all the people who never buy Basmati rice buy a kilo and the shelves are bare.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Way to go, US. What could possibly go wrong?
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