The big Coronavirus thread
Comments
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No, more traditional right wing commentators, not that lot.rjsterry said:
Hot air merchants Piers Morgan and Julia Hartley-Brewer? This really is way down the list of things to give a censored about.rick_chasey said:
Royal stock is very low at the moment. If they keep this up they won't be in such a privileged position for too much longer, especially when you look at who is upset by it.rjsterry said:
It's quite funny seeing people frothing about that. Did they really think that being first in line to the throne didn't come with some special treatment?
Nonce brother of the future king - future king could not hold his contempt more for people if he tried. Most popular royal jacking it all in.
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Trump still convinced it will all be over by Easter. Surely even those who usually give him the benefit of the doubt must be questioning his sanity now?0
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Stupid people believe stupid leaders ?0
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Easy to fall into the 'stupid' trap. I think there is more to it than purely stupidity but maybe I'm just being too generous. History is littered with this stuff though. I think people like simple solutions (even if they are based on no foundation whatsoever).fenix said:Stupid people believe stupid leaders ?
We all have finite capacity for understanding / engagement and in areas we are less passionate, we tend to package things simply whereas our passions are full of nuance.
e.g. I don't much care for football. Therefore, all football fans can be grouped as lager swilling, beer bellied louts. I don't need to be any more granular even though this is a huge generalisation.
For a lot of people, politics is one such area. So someone packaging things neatly is easy. They're usually quite charismatic though which is the real anomaly with Trump. He's repulsive to look at and watch.0 -
Listening to radio this llunchtime is sobering. What I have been arguing that the current version of the cure or at least how some intrepet it to be stay at home and dont bother working is likely to end up with more harm. Whats been modelled is life expectancy vs wealth. A drop in GDP of 6.5% is linked to more years lost in life expetancy than is gained by beating the virus. While this is model and should never be taken as fact it is is an indicator to consider. The stay and home mantra and dont work is probably going to cause even more harm than the virus itself or at the very least compound the harm the virus is doing. At the very least when people say we have no choice they should stop and think abut the impact of the choice we are all making. Is it something we can live with because we will have to. Theres alot of emotion guding us at present and not alot of thinking ahead. However I am not arguing for the cummings approach thats not something I think many of us could tollerate.
washing ones hand and keeping distance is the only tools we actually have. Wearing masks well the kind we can buy does not help. They being next to your damp breath will harbour the virus and possibly increase the risk of transmision as well as hide your face. Hiding ones face is depressing. That is harm thats real. vinyl gloves as I have seem shop woirkers wear harbour the virus better than your skin. Washing ones hands is more effective. bluntly the way the public repsond to this problem is without logic and will increase the harm we face. At least this morning in the local shop it was one in one out and we kept our distance. locals are even walking there now. not much of a silver lining but it all I have today.www.thecycleclinic.co.uk0 -
The antibodies, 'have you already had it' test could be days away.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I believe his approval numbers have actually been increasing. Unbelievable really.Pross said:Trump still convinced it will all be over by Easter. Surely even those who usually give him the benefit of the doubt must be questioning his sanity now?
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He tells people just what they want to hear, it's all fine (puts hand over ears and goes lalalalala, ignoring the issues) whilst telling everyone how great he is. People don't want the bad news.morstar said:
Easy to fall into the 'stupid' trap. I think there is more to it than purely stupidity but maybe I'm just being too generous. History is littered with this stuff though. I think people like simple solutions (even if they are based on no foundation whatsoever).fenix said:Stupid people believe stupid leaders ?
We all have finite capacity for understanding / engagement and in areas we are less passionate, we tend to package things simply whereas our passions are full of nuance.
e.g. I don't much care for football. Therefore, all football fans can be grouped as lager swilling, beer bellied louts. I don't need to be any more granular even though this is a huge generalisation.
For a lot of people, politics is one such area. So someone packaging things neatly is easy. They're usually quite charismatic though which is the real anomaly with Trump. He's repulsive to look at and watch.0 -
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Any employment lawyers out there? My current employer is now talking about furloughing most of it's staff, but I'm currently working my notice with them, due to leave on the 3rd April. Do I have to accept this from them? Should I hold out for a full final salary from them?0
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rick_chasey said:
Sweden hasn't shut much down. Worth paying attention to their stats.
Appears they have double the rate of infections per million population. Are you advocating for their approach, or against?0 -
Lock down got boring quickly. Busy like a sunny July Sunday afternoon outside. Daughter returned from dog walk due to people everywhere.
I'm still locked in the box room working away.0 -
Not a lawyer but as the intention of the 80% is to avoid redundancies and you had already said you were leaving they should be paying full. If the work is no longer sufficient to keep people on then surely they may as well be letting you go and paying you your notice? I can't see that 20% of your remaining salary is going to be make or break for them.thegreasedscotsman said:Any employment lawyers out there? My current employer is now talking about furloughing most of it's staff, but I'm currently working my notice with them, due to leave on the 3rd April. Do I have to accept this from them? Should I hold out for a full final salary from them?
The problem with all the safety nets that have been put in place is that they'll get abused but employees and employers that are that way inclined!0 -
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My employer has been communicating its steps very well. We are business as usual at the moment but they are very proactive and looking into the technical details of all options.thegreasedscotsman said:Any employment lawyers out there? My current employer is now talking about furloughing most of it's staff, but I'm currently working my notice with them, due to leave on the 3rd April. Do I have to accept this from them? Should I hold out for a full final salary from them?
Their take on the furloughing at yesterdays update is that the details remain very sketchy about what / how it works.
They have said any changes will be carried out with normal consultation rules applied though (if and when changes are needed).
Depends on what state they're in to how hard you can push though. If business survival is on the line, you could be comparing 100% of nothing to 80% underwritten.0 -
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.1 -
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.0 -
Fuck me we're doomed. People still just aren't getting it are they?0
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That's fucking bleak.morstar said:
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.0 -
Apparently the youngest UK death is a 21 year old girl with no known underlying health issues.0
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17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.0 -
It is a proven outcome that normal health provision can be swamped. Italy. Cash rich China flexed capacity in a way unlikely to be replicated by any other nation.shortfall said:
17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
We have capped spread and can now establish how much leverage we can exert on this virus. It may be too little too late but probably sufficient to cap it below complete meltdown of health service.
We will then need to release constraints in a controlled way.
A new norm will be defined in the next 3 months or so that allows some increased productivity but retains lots of controls. I have no idea what that looks like but we have done what we had to do to avoid a potential catastrophe.
If in 6 weeks the developing world has done OK without controls the whole thing gets switched off as overkill.0 -
Name a country that has taken less stringent measures than us that is in a better place in terms of death rate at the same point of the timeline. Our Government went out of the way to try to get support measures in place before trying to shut things down.shortfall said:
17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
I suggest moving to the US if you want things to go back to normal in days rather than months. Good luck!0 -
Just trying to match the posters who think they’re the only ones that have ever contemplated difficult decisions and outcomes. It seems to make them feel bigger.kingstongraham said:
That's censored bleak.morstar said:
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
Dispassionately though, there will be lots of important data gathered.0 -
This is exactly the point I have been putting forward in the last week or so.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
The self righteous mob on here try to shut down the conversation by accusing you of pushing eugenics if you raise the above point!0 -
These things can't be measured after a matter of weeks. Let's see how it looks after a few months. Let's see if you still agree with the lockdown when the economy collapses and there's no money to pay your pension, or to provide the NHS as we know it, or your employer has gone bust, and that of your partner.Pross said:
Name a country that has taken less stringent measures than us that is in a better place in terms of death rate at the same point of the timeline. Our Government went out of the way to try to get support measures in place before trying to shut things down.shortfall said:
17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
I suggest moving to the US if you want things to go back to normal in days rather than months. Good luck!0 -
As I have a family member currently in hospital with pneumonia awaiting their Covid test results and not responding well to treatment so far I can put things into perspective to be honest.0
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Italy’s health service is at critical with a lock down. What do you think happens with uncontrolled virus spread.shortfall said:
These things can't be measured after a matter of weeks. Let's see how it looks after a few months. Let's see if you still agree with the lockdown when the economy collapses and there's no money to pay your pension, or to provide the NHS as we know it, or your employer has gone bust, and that of your partner.Pross said:
Name a country that has taken less stringent measures than us that is in a better place in terms of death rate at the same point of the timeline. Our Government went out of the way to try to get support measures in place before trying to shut things down.shortfall said:
17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
I suggest moving to the US if you want things to go back to normal in days rather than months. Good luck!
Even if you ignore anybody over arbitrary age x, it most likely collapses.
Take the 50% infection figure as some benchmark of hope. I do not see how that figure is remotely plausible given the timeline when doing an ad hoc comparison to swine flu.0 -
What do you think happens to health services when you collapse an economy?morstar said:
Italy’s health service is at critical with a lock down. What do you think happens with uncontrolled virus spread.shortfall said:
These things can't be measured after a matter of weeks. Let's see how it looks after a few months. Let's see if you still agree with the lockdown when the economy collapses and there's no money to pay your pension, or to provide the NHS as we know it, or your employer has gone bust, and that of your partner.Pross said:
Name a country that has taken less stringent measures than us that is in a better place in terms of death rate at the same point of the timeline. Our Government went out of the way to try to get support measures in place before trying to shut things down.shortfall said:
17000 people will die on average each year in the UK from influenza. How do we know the mortality rate from Coronavirus when the testing is virtually non existent? Can we accurately compare our own population to that of Northern Italy which has suffered more than other countries? A study from the university of Oxford suggests that 50 percent of the UK population could have already be infected. We are literally betting the ranch on the lockdown strategy when the science is conflicting.morstar said:
Calm heads and objectivity are critical.shortfall said:
You have my sympathy Malcolm. The government's current strategy appears to have changed following the publishing of a model by imperial College predicting hundreds of thousands of deaths if it stuck to it's original plan. However the same college was behind recommending the mass slaughter of healthy cattle during the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, a policy which has since been widely criticised and condemned. Scientists have different opinions and government's should look to them for advice, but if the cure is worse than the disease then where does that leave us? If we crash our economy in pursuing well meaning but damaging strategies that ultimately lead indirectly to more deaths than would be caused by the virus then what is the point? At the moment unfortunately any dissenting voices are drowned out by the self righteous mob who will suggest that anyone who questions the lockdown want people to die or are cranks and conspiracy theorists. Calm heads are needed here.thecycleclinic said:
If that's the case I go bankrupt. There is no salary support for me as I am.a director of my company. Will you feed me and house me. Thought not. Neither will the government. Also when this is over very few will have a job and the whole nation is screwed.Pross said:The amount of people I read say something along the lines of 'it's really busy still everywhere with people ignoring the lockdown. I saw so many people when I was driving home from work but I have to go out as I can't work from home'.
The Government need to just make it simple and say you only travel for work if designated as a key worker. They've put the financial support in place to try to help those who wouldn't be able to work from home and it sounds like measures for the self-employed are coming in once it has been worked out how best to do it.
At the other end of the scale one of my wife's staff has just asked if she needs to self-isolate as she looked after her niece and nephew whose father's gran has been confirmed as having the virus. The kids don't even live with the father but the staff member is in a right panic!
I might have topped myself by them through sheer depression. Well I probably wont but many will.
There is a danger the cure is worse than the disease in our desperation and panic to avert deaths we instead condemn the whole nation to poverty from which there is no coming out of. Things seem fine now but if society start to break down in 12 months time ith food shortages and we dont have a vaccine we will wonder do we just let the old die so the rest of us can live.
People need to think through what they are saying. If people cant earn then there is no state as the state needs peoples wealth to fucntion.
This will.not be over in 3 months or even 6. 12 at least. We have to work even if it's for our own personal sanity.
I actually think just using death rates as a catch all for the lock down is equally an unfair criticism of arguments you don’t agree with.
If it was just an old generation dying quietly with little intervention when they would have died anyway, it would be more widely tolerable.
But, it isn’t that, it’s lots of people needing intensive care that massively exceeds capacity. Much of which is in people who have a good chance of a long and healthy life to follow.
They won’t if this runs riot. And do you really think things are going to run normally if a huge proportion of the workforce are sick and the health service can only handle the virus?
Things will stop working then in a totally uncontrolled way.
But, we can all take comfort that the developing world will give us a good barometer of what happens without any controls. For their sake, I hope it’s not as devastating as we are led to believe. But then again, we’re used to them dying.
I suggest moving to the US if you want things to go back to normal in days rather than months. Good luck!
Even if you ignore anybody over arbitrary age x, it most likely collapses.
Take the 50% infection figure as some benchmark of hope. I do not see how that figure is remotely plausible given the timeline when doing an ad hoc comparison to swine flu.0
