The big Coronavirus thread

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Does the forum think that had all the lockdowns happened a fortnight sooner, the UK would have performed better?

Not sure. Most people I know were effectively in lockdown before being told to do so.
Other people behave differently though so...

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

Does the forum think that had all the lockdowns happened a fortnight sooner, the UK would have performed better?

Going to say no. Or at least not much.

Firstly, it only relates to the first wave. Secondly, I don't know whether adherence would have been as good unless the shit had already hit the fan.

shirley_basso

My wife works in heathcare and she was reading about bodies piling up in italian hospitals. Meanwhile I was in a meeting when we unilaterally agreed that the deathtoll in the UK would unlikely exceed the winter flu.

pblakeney

shirley_basso said:

My wife works in heathcare and she was reading about bodies piling up in italian hospitals. Meanwhile I was in a meeting when we unilaterally agreed that the deathtoll in the UK would unlikely exceed the winter flu.

Ha! As we walked out of the office to start wfh I said it would last at least 3 months.
I was laughed at.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Does the forum think that had all the lockdowns happened a fortnight sooner, the UK would have performed better?

Nothing I've read since has convinced me that our collective judgement that Johnson dithered nearly every time had large negative consequences... there was the Christmas fiasco in which half of London whizzed off down to Cornwall, the opening of schools for one day, plus whatever fortnight delays while Johnson dithered...

I might just possibly let 'em off the very first ditherment in March 2020, given all the unknowns, but after that, I think we all saw the inability to make timely (if hard) decisions. Pandemics aren't something you can lie, or bluster, or charm your way out of.

pblakeney

That's a good 3 word slogan for BJ.
Lie, bluster, charm.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Regarding the hypothetical earlier lockdowns, yes I believe they would have made a difference ahead of the 2nd lockdown and tiered system. I remember seeing the infection rate modelling in late summer and many experts calling for the circuit breaker in September (which Sunak convinced Johnson not to impose).

The modelling showed the case rate and how this would lead to another national lockdown as cases rose and hospitals reached breaking point again. It was pretty spot on from what I recall.

The consensus was a 2-3 week full on 'circuit breaker' lockdown would have curbed the case rises and prevented the 3rd lockdown in Jan 2021.

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

That's a good 3 word slogan for BJ.
Lie, bluster, charm.

I'd turn that around, as I think that's his sequence in all his affairs, political and sexual.

pblakeney

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

That's a good 3 word slogan for BJ.
Lie, bluster, charm.

I'd turn that around, as I think that's his sequence in all his affairs, political and sexual.

Fair point.

briantrumpet

Cummings is no saint, but he obviously saw through Johnson and the shambles he was notionally in charge of.

https://twitter.com/RussellScott1/status/1711829690879475927

briantrumpet

Stuff coming out of the covid enquiry suggests that Johnson was even more incompetent and reckless than we imagined, and his lackeys were busy trying to cover their tracks in real time, at least when they weren't partying. Extraordinary.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1719013139155407098

https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/1719031979063013525

Jezyboy

Simon Case during a pandemic "govt isn't actually that hard"

I'm no fan of Boris but that's clearly bull

pangolin

Still can't believe the government are allowed to do business on whatsapp.

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

Stuff coming out of the covid enquiry suggests that Johnson was even more incompetent and reckless than we imagined, and his lackeys were busy trying to cover their tracks in real time, at least when they weren't partying. Extraordinary.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1719013139155407098

https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/1719031979063013525

Nothing positive is ever said about Simon Case. His name repeatedly comes up in all scandals e.g. Sue Grey.

wallace_and_gromit

Jezyboy said:

Simon Case during a pandemic "govt isn't actually that hard"

I'm no fan of Boris but that's clearly bull

Presumably he was referring to the process of governing rather than saying there are no hard decisions to make.

Pross

It became obvious at the time that Boris decided policy on who he last spoke to and / or who was shouting loudest e.g. making reopening pubs with public funding to get people back one of the first post-lockdown priorities.

Jezyboy

wallace_and_gromit said:

Jezyboy said:

Simon Case during a pandemic "govt isn't actually that hard"

I'm no fan of Boris but that's clearly bull

Presumably he was referring to the process of governing rather than saying there are no hard decisions to make.

Possibly, but you could probably say that about most processes, running a marathon is just putting one foot in front of the other, going to the moon is just passing a load of design reviews etc.

It sounds like something a new graduate says on day 1 of their job before they've done anything!

rick_chasey

I get why we need to look at these, but people say all sorts of stuff internally that's never meant for public consumption so you need to take it in that context.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

I get why we need to look at these, but people say all sorts of stuff internally that's never meant for public consumption so you need to take it in that context.

Depends on whether it is idle chit chat or actual business.

rick_chasey

Bitching and moaning about bosses is a core part of culture building and should not be taken at face value

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Bitching and moaning about bosses is a core part of culture building and should not be taken at face value

I think it's a bit more than that when it is a whole host of people doing it when discussing the biggest crisis the country faced in a generation though and it also seems to confirm how many people felt they were 'dealing' with things at the time. If you look back to the relevant dates in this thread I'm sure you'll find plenty of comments along the lines of what these people who were directly involved were apparently saying. I was pretty supportive of a Government trying to cope with an extremely challenging situation in the early days but it soon became apparent they had no coherent strategy and were basing their decisions on whichever way the media and lobby groups were steering them.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Bitching and moaning about bosses is a core part of culture building and should not be taken at face value

I think it's a bit more than that when it is a whole host of people doing it when discussing the biggest crisis the country faced in a generation though and it also seems to confirm how many people felt they were 'dealing' with things at the time. If you look back to the relevant dates in this thread I'm sure you'll find plenty of comments along the lines of what these people who were directly involved were apparently saying. I was pretty supportive of a Government trying to cope with an extremely challenging situation in the early days but it soon became apparent they had no coherent strategy and were basing their decisions on whichever way the media and lobby groups were steering them.

And Johnson being unterly [sic] unable to make timely decisions, because he wanted everyone to like him. CS was well onto that, but I thinkeven we did underestimate just what a dissembling, lazy ar$ehole he was, and the depth incompetence of the politicians he surrounded himself with, given the evidence coming out now.

I think the equally big question that Labour needs to find out is to what degree the shovelling of mega £s to their mates was deliberate corruption, not just incompetent management. At the time CS praised Sunak for the speed at which money was handed out, but in retrospect, maybe that was part of the fraud at the expense of taxpayers.

rick_chasey

Sure, I get the confirmation bias, I am with you there, it's just what people say when they're bitching about bosses isn't really nuanced or offers anything close to an accurate picture.

We all do it.

rick_chasey

I understand for things as serious and impactful as this it is important to understand the decision making process.

But I also understand that in order to make the right decisions as a team there needs to be a space where they can all speak freely and honestly in private, without the risk of it being taken out of context or misused.

We can almost be certain that is "Britain's greatest person" Churchill was around now he'd have been sunk multiple times for his behaviour behind the curtain. Is that an ideal outcome?

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

I get why we need to look at these, but people say all sorts of stuff internally that's never meant for public consumption so you need to take it in that context.

Some of us are bright enough to not write pages and pages of incriminating stuff on retrievable data storage.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

I understand for things as serious and impactful as this it is important to understand the decision making process.

But I also understand that in order to make the right decisions as a team there needs to be a space where they can all speak freely and honestly in private, without the risk of it being taken out of context or misused.

We can almost be certain that is "Britain's greatest person" Churchill was around now he'd have been sunk multiple times for his behaviour behind the curtain. Is that an ideal outcome?

He was sunk on more than one occasion. He f***ed up very publicly. It's not about modern standards: it's never been a good idea to write down things that you would be embarrassed to read out loud.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

I understand for things as serious and impactful as this it is important to understand the decision making process.

But I also understand that in order to make the right decisions as a team there needs to be a space where they can all speak freely and honestly in private, without the risk of it being taken out of context or misused.

We can almost be certain that is "Britain's greatest person" Churchill was around now he'd have been sunk multiple times for his behaviour behind the curtain. Is that an ideal outcome?

He was sunk on more than one occasion. He f***ed up very publicly. It's not about modern standards: it's never been a good idea to write down things that you would be embarrassed to read out loud.

Entirely depends on the audience, and making people self censure (when you can't always speak to each other) does not make for better decision making.

Think we'll have to disagree here. I think it's really important for teams to have a safe space to say sh!t that needs to be said that is not for external consumption.

Sure there are exceptions etc, but for people asking why they need to govern on whatsapp - this is why - everything else is subject to an FOI request.

briantrumpet

Haha, my pupil must be killing himself laughing hear his father read this stuff out.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1719325294656413847

Jezyboy

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

I understand for things as serious and impactful as this it is important to understand the decision making process.

But I also understand that in order to make the right decisions as a team there needs to be a space where they can all speak freely and honestly in private, without the risk of it being taken out of context or misused.

We can almost be certain that is "Britain's greatest person" Churchill was around now he'd have been sunk multiple times for his behaviour behind the curtain. Is that an ideal outcome?

He was sunk on more than one occasion. He f***ed up very publicly. It's not about modern standards: it's never been a good idea to write down things that you would be embarrassed to read out loud.

Entirely depends on the audience, and making people self censure (when you can't always speak to each other) does not make for better decision making.

Think we'll have to disagree here. I think it's really important for teams to have a safe space to say sh!t that needs to be said that is not for external consumption.

Sure there are exceptions etc, but for people asking why they need to govern on whatsapp - this is why - everything else is subject to an FOI request.

I think there's a thin line between what you're describing, and you mindless workplace bitching.

It certainly sounds like the govt treated WhatsApp as a communication safe space, and given their performance, it's certainly clear that a communication safe space is no guarantee of high performance.

kingstongraham

With all the parties they were having, couldn't they have said it to each other over a beer in the old fashioned way?