The big Coronavirus thread

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

I’m so you can go f yourself! I talk about the lack of mask wearing in shops, supermarkets and work and transportation yet I’m still wearing a mask and following guidelines as I’m clinically extremely vulnerable and have had four jabs yet still managed to get COVID. My mates when rarely round will
Sit in out garden with plenty of ventilation. So, yes. I have a valid fooking point that unmasked people around
Me are putting me at risk and there seems to be f all I can do about it. Hence getting really pissed orf when I did get it from work. And I was pretty ill. So my opinion is pretty f’ing valid as I know what protection and measures I insist on in my own life.

Reflect on how you got covid and start from there. Whilst you might be a bastion of virtue I am a bit fed up with those banging on about precautions when watching them operate makes me think they would struggle to avoid an STI. #thesupermarketisnotthatrisky.

You have as much of a valid point as those needing crutches asking everyone else to use crutches to make the world a more equal place.

We literally have part of the Building Regs that makes it a legal requirement for new buildings to be wheelchair accessible despite a tiny fraction of the population using one. We spend millions of pounds installing lifts that able bodied people don't need. You really do spout some nonsense sometimes.

If you think that making everyone in a supermarket wear a mask is of the same value as making the world a more equal place for the handicapped then good luck to you. I have just built an extension and it cost me nothing to make it wheelchair compatible but you crack on with your logic.

That could be the first time I've seen handicapped used instead of disabled this century.

Honestly, as someone with a brother in law with special needs, and a who used to have a profoundly handicapped brother, the semantics is so utterly irrelevant in comparison to their actual needs, I'd be happy if they were called Joeys, providing their needs were even half way met by this society.

Enough with the yoghurt knitting.

My wife works in care with adults with learning disabilities, I understand the issues they face. Having enough respect to use what is considered to be the acceptable term by the majority of those living with disabilities rather than a term that went out of common use about 30 years ago would appear good starting point.

Giving a censored is a good starting point.

Why is handicapped and worse than disabled?

"Dis" is negative.

That's awful.

Let's refer to people as para abled. Or alternatively abled. Or complementaritly abled.

That'll fix it.

Or make no fuxking difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference to those with disabilities. People get called out for using dated terminology for other minority groups, why do you think it doesn't matter for disabled people? Differently abled is also not liked by many disabled people as they think it trivialises their condition. Disabled isn't negative, it refers to the barriers that are put in place not their physical condition.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

The article seems to object to the term "people with disabilities".

Yeah, it's a subtle difference. As I understand it people with disabilities suggest the problem is with them. Disabled people is seen as they are having barriers put in their way.

It's just you opened up your previous post with "those with disabilities" and then linked to something suggesting that wasn't great language.

I suppose my point is that it isn't easy.

I agree but I'm surprised to see there are still people who think handicapped is an acceptable term.

Up untill this morning I did not know it was not acceptable and have no idea if I have been using it, as I have not been told off by anybody I am guessing not.

Pross

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

I’m so you can go f yourself! I talk about the lack of mask wearing in shops, supermarkets and work and transportation yet I’m still wearing a mask and following guidelines as I’m clinically extremely vulnerable and have had four jabs yet still managed to get COVID. My mates when rarely round will
Sit in out garden with plenty of ventilation. So, yes. I have a valid fooking point that unmasked people around
Me are putting me at risk and there seems to be f all I can do about it. Hence getting really pissed orf when I did get it from work. And I was pretty ill. So my opinion is pretty f’ing valid as I know what protection and measures I insist on in my own life.

Reflect on how you got covid and start from there. Whilst you might be a bastion of virtue I am a bit fed up with those banging on about precautions when watching them operate makes me think they would struggle to avoid an STI. #thesupermarketisnotthatrisky.

You have as much of a valid point as those needing crutches asking everyone else to use crutches to make the world a more equal place.

We literally have part of the Building Regs that makes it a legal requirement for new buildings to be wheelchair accessible despite a tiny fraction of the population using one. We spend millions of pounds installing lifts that able bodied people don't need. You really do spout some nonsense sometimes.

If you think that making everyone in a supermarket wear a mask is of the same value as making the world a more equal place for the handicapped then good luck to you. I have just built an extension and it cost me nothing to make it wheelchair compatible but you crack on with your logic.

That could be the first time I've seen handicapped used instead of disabled this century.

Honestly, as someone with a brother in law with special needs, and a who used to have a profoundly handicapped brother, the semantics is so utterly irrelevant in comparison to their actual needs, I'd be happy if they were called Joeys, providing their needs were even half way met by this society.

Enough with the yoghurt knitting.

My wife works in care with adults with learning disabilities, I understand the issues they face. Having enough respect to use what is considered to be the acceptable term by the majority of those living with disabilities rather than a term that went out of common use about 30 years ago would appear good starting point.

Giving a censored is a good starting point.

Why is handicapped and worse than disabled?

"Dis" is negative.

That's awful.

Let's refer to people as para abled. Or alternatively abled. Or complementaritly abled.

That'll fix it.

Or make no fuxking difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference to those with disabilities. People get called out for using dated terminology for other minority groups, why do you think it doesn't matter for disabled people? Differently abled is also not liked by many disabled people as they think it trivialises their condition. Disabled isn't negative, it refers to the barriers that are put in place not their physical condition.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

The article seems to object to the term "people with disabilities".

Yeah, it's a subtle difference. As I understand it people with disabilities suggest the problem is with them. Disabled people is seen as they are having barriers put in their way.

It's just you opened up your previous post with "those with disabilities" and then linked to something suggesting that wasn't great language.

I suppose my point is that it isn't easy.

I agree but I'm surprised to see there are still people who think handicapped is an acceptable term.

Up untill this morning I did not know it was not acceptable and have no idea if I have been using it, as I have not been told off by anybody I am guessing not.

Maybe it's the influence of living with someone who has spent all of their working life looking after disabled people (physical, learning or both) and getting corrected. I was genuinely surprised to read it being used, I have only seen / heard it used in recent years by Americans (I don't know if it is still commonly accepted over there).

Stevo_666

Unlike some terms that definitely had negative connotations a few decades back (not necessarily related to the disabled) and are unacceptable now, I never remember the word 'handicapped' being remotely negative. Certainly no more so than the word disabled.

Anyway, as FA says, words count less than deeds.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

My mum still refers to the handicapped. And she had a handicapped child.

It means the same thing. And honestly, if "disabled" had been the term of choice at that time, you'd be criticised for using it now, and another term would be preferred. Such as handicapped.

It is not an "in my day" thing, more that as you get older you start to see how cyclic things are.

Stuff changes. Mostly for the better. Busses now routinely have wheelchair ramps, and visual and verbal announcements of what stop you are approaching. All new housing has to be built to accommodate varying degrees of mobility (that most of us will experience at some point in our lives). People need to stop grumping that they occasionally have a slightly awkward moment because they use an archaic term.

Random question - do you think outward opening bathroom doors are a good thing? I feel that they are going to cause injuries.

They're a compromise. opening into a circulation space isn't great. A sliding door would be a better solution. You can also get double action hinges.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

I have good manners but can't keep me up with all the latest rules.
I will do nothing intentionally so past that, meh.

There aren't rules, just conventions. And I think intent is half of it anyway.

There's no intent either way I wouldn't have thought.

You are correct some things have improved. But my experience has been that Covid has been very, very hard on the care sector. You hear about the elderly care homes, but not about other care settings. Because those people don't have much of a voice.

We have a friend with a daughter in long term care and the home just gave her back. She's 82 and now has a 55 year old special needs person to care for full time. And my brother in law had a lower quality of life and fewer rights afforded him in lockdown than someone in prison. That is no exaggeration.

I certainly don't mean that there is not still massive room for improvement. I also agree that people tend to focus on terminology as it is an easy thing for organisations to implement whereas sufficient staff and altering buildings is difficult and expensive.

orraloon

No golfers on here then? 🧐

kingstonian

Pross said:

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

I’m so you can go f yourself! I talk about the lack of mask wearing in shops, supermarkets and work and transportation yet I’m still wearing a mask and following guidelines as I’m clinically extremely vulnerable and have had four jabs yet still managed to get COVID. My mates when rarely round will
Sit in out garden with plenty of ventilation. So, yes. I have a valid fooking point that unmasked people around
Me are putting me at risk and there seems to be f all I can do about it. Hence getting really pissed orf when I did get it from work. And I was pretty ill. So my opinion is pretty f’ing valid as I know what protection and measures I insist on in my own life.

Reflect on how you got covid and start from there. Whilst you might be a bastion of virtue I am a bit fed up with those banging on about precautions when watching them operate makes me think they would struggle to avoid an STI. #thesupermarketisnotthatrisky.

You have as much of a valid point as those needing crutches asking everyone else to use crutches to make the world a more equal place.

We literally have part of the Building Regs that makes it a legal requirement for new buildings to be wheelchair accessible despite a tiny fraction of the population using one. We spend millions of pounds installing lifts that able bodied people don't need. You really do spout some nonsense sometimes.

If you think that making everyone in a supermarket wear a mask is of the same value as making the world a more equal place for the handicapped then good luck to you. I have just built an extension and it cost me nothing to make it wheelchair compatible but you crack on with your logic.

That could be the first time I've seen handicapped used instead of disabled this century.

Honestly, as someone with a brother in law with special needs, and a who used to have a profoundly handicapped brother, the semantics is so utterly irrelevant in comparison to their actual needs, I'd be happy if they were called Joeys, providing their needs were even half way met by this society.

Enough with the yoghurt knitting.

My wife works in care with adults with learning disabilities, I understand the issues they face. Having enough respect to use what is considered to be the acceptable term by the majority of those living with disabilities rather than a term that went out of common use about 30 years ago would appear good starting point.

Giving a censored is a good starting point.

Why is handicapped and worse than disabled?

"Dis" is negative.

That's awful.

Let's refer to people as para abled. Or alternatively abled. Or complementaritly abled.

That'll fix it.

Or make no fuxking difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference to those with disabilities. People get called out for using dated terminology for other minority groups, why do you think it doesn't matter for disabled people? Differently abled is also not liked by many disabled people as they think it trivialises their condition. Disabled isn't negative, it refers to the barriers that are put in place not their physical condition.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

The article seems to object to the term "people with disabilities".

Yeah, it's a subtle difference. As I understand it people with disabilities suggest the problem is with them. Disabled people is seen as they are having barriers put in their way.

It's just you opened up your previous post with "those with disabilities" and then linked to something suggesting that wasn't great language.

I suppose my point is that it isn't easy.

I agree but I'm surprised to see there are still people who think handicapped is an acceptable term.

Up untill this morning I did not know it was not acceptable and have no idea if I have been using it, as I have not been told off by anybody I am guessing not.

Maybe it's the influence of living with someone who has spent all of their working life looking after disabled people (physical, learning or both) and getting corrected. I was genuinely surprised to read it being used, I have only seen / heard it used in recent years by Americans (I don't know if it is still commonly accepted over there).

Up until a couple of years ago I’m pretty sure the word “handicapped” was a commonly accepted term in the US and wasn’t viewed as being derogatory.

First.Aspect

The charity is still called Mencap as well.

blazing_saddles

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

I’m so you can go f yourself! I talk about the lack of mask wearing in shops, supermarkets and work and transportation yet I’m still wearing a mask and following guidelines as I’m clinically extremely vulnerable and have had four jabs yet still managed to get COVID. My mates when rarely round will
Sit in out garden with plenty of ventilation. So, yes. I have a valid fooking point that unmasked people around
Me are putting me at risk and there seems to be f all I can do about it. Hence getting really pissed orf when I did get it from work. And I was pretty ill. So my opinion is pretty f’ing valid as I know what protection and measures I insist on in my own life.

Reflect on how you got covid and start from there. Whilst you might be a bastion of virtue I am a bit fed up with those banging on about precautions when watching them operate makes me think they would struggle to avoid an STI. #thesupermarketisnotthatrisky.

You have as much of a valid point as those needing crutches asking everyone else to use crutches to make the world a more equal place.

We literally have part of the Building Regs that makes it a legal requirement for new buildings to be wheelchair accessible despite a tiny fraction of the population using one. We spend millions of pounds installing lifts that able bodied people don't need. You really do spout some nonsense sometimes.

If you think that making everyone in a supermarket wear a mask is of the same value as making the world a more equal place for the handicapped then good luck to you. I have just built an extension and it cost me nothing to make it wheelchair compatible but you crack on with your logic.

That could be the first time I've seen handicapped used instead of disabled this century.

Honestly, as someone with a brother in law with special needs, and a who used to have a profoundly handicapped brother, the semantics is so utterly irrelevant in comparison to their actual needs, I'd be happy if they were called Joeys, providing their needs were even half way met by this society.

Enough with the yoghurt knitting.

My wife works in care with adults with learning disabilities, I understand the issues they face. Having enough respect to use what is considered to be the acceptable term by the majority of those living with disabilities rather than a term that went out of common use about 30 years ago would appear good starting point.

Giving a censored is a good starting point.

Why is handicapped and worse than disabled?

"Dis" is negative.

That's awful.

Let's refer to people as para abled. Or alternatively abled. Or complementaritly abled.

That'll fix it.

Or make no fuxking difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference to those with disabilities. People get called out for using dated terminology for other minority groups, why do you think it doesn't matter for disabled people? Differently abled is also not liked by many disabled people as they think it trivialises their condition. Disabled isn't negative, it refers to the barriers that are put in place not their physical condition.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

The article seems to object to the term "people with disabilities".

Yeah, it's a subtle difference. As I understand it people with disabilities suggest the problem is with them. Disabled people is seen as they are having barriers put in their way.

It's just you opened up your previous post with "those with disabilities" and then linked to something suggesting that wasn't great language.

I suppose my point is that it isn't easy.

I agree but I'm surprised to see there are still people who think handicapped is an acceptable term.

Up untill this morning I did not know it was not acceptable and have no idea if I have been using it, as I have not been told off by anybody I am guessing not.

I was in exactly the same situation.
I have a disabled niece but I can’t ever recall referring to her as disabled.

To be offended: It’s almost as if it’s become fashionable.

joe2019

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

My mum still refers to the handicapped. And she had a handicapped child.

It means the same thing. And honestly, if "disabled" had been the term of choice at that time, you'd be criticised for using it now, and another term would be preferred. Such as handicapped.

It is not an "in my day" thing, more that as you get older you start to see how cyclic things are.

orraloon said:

No golfers on here then? 🧐

Tiger Woods calling himself a spaz, and that generally being an acceptable term in the USA.

TheBigBean

Isn't the problem with sliding doors that the walls they slide into are then not strong enough for wall bar things? Doubled hinged makes more sense provided they can be locked one way very easily.

Also, "circulation space" - that will annoy some.

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

My mum still refers to the handicapped. And she had a handicapped child.

It means the same thing. And honestly, if "disabled" had been the term of choice at that time, you'd be criticised for using it now, and another term would be preferred. Such as handicapped.

It is not an "in my day" thing, more that as you get older you start to see how cyclic things are.

Stuff changes. Mostly for the better. Busses now routinely have wheelchair ramps, and visual and verbal announcements of what stop you are approaching. All new housing has to be built to accommodate varying degrees of mobility (that most of us will experience at some point in our lives). People need to stop grumping that they occasionally have a slightly awkward moment because they use an archaic term.

Random question - do you think outward opening bathroom doors are a good thing? I feel that they are going to cause injuries.

They're a compromise. opening into a circulation space isn't great. A sliding door would be a better solution. You can also get double action hinges.

Stevo_666

blazing_saddles said:

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

TheBigBean said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

john80 said:

briantrumpet said:

john80 said:

photonic69 said:

rjsterry said:

Numbers going up again. Wave no. 4 is this?
.

“ The ONS says it's too early to say what's behind the rise in cases.…” - from the BBC website.

No sh!t Sherlock! Everyone I see around the supermarket is unmasked and openly coughing everywhere. People seem to believe the pandemic is over cos the asshat government said so.

Or maybe they looked at the research that said it was about as dangerous as flu and made a rational decision.

What, to spread it unnecessarily?

It's funny isn't it how those that talk about the covid risk in supermarkets don't have their mates round and insist on all the windows open in winter and masks all round. It funny how that supermarket seems more risky than the many other social interactions they have that are clearly much worse.

I’m so you can go f yourself! I talk about the lack of mask wearing in shops, supermarkets and work and transportation yet I’m still wearing a mask and following guidelines as I’m clinically extremely vulnerable and have had four jabs yet still managed to get COVID. My mates when rarely round will
Sit in out garden with plenty of ventilation. So, yes. I have a valid fooking point that unmasked people around
Me are putting me at risk and there seems to be f all I can do about it. Hence getting really pissed orf when I did get it from work. And I was pretty ill. So my opinion is pretty f’ing valid as I know what protection and measures I insist on in my own life.

Reflect on how you got covid and start from there. Whilst you might be a bastion of virtue I am a bit fed up with those banging on about precautions when watching them operate makes me think they would struggle to avoid an STI. #thesupermarketisnotthatrisky.

You have as much of a valid point as those needing crutches asking everyone else to use crutches to make the world a more equal place.

We literally have part of the Building Regs that makes it a legal requirement for new buildings to be wheelchair accessible despite a tiny fraction of the population using one. We spend millions of pounds installing lifts that able bodied people don't need. You really do spout some nonsense sometimes.

If you think that making everyone in a supermarket wear a mask is of the same value as making the world a more equal place for the handicapped then good luck to you. I have just built an extension and it cost me nothing to make it wheelchair compatible but you crack on with your logic.

That could be the first time I've seen handicapped used instead of disabled this century.

Honestly, as someone with a brother in law with special needs, and a who used to have a profoundly handicapped brother, the semantics is so utterly irrelevant in comparison to their actual needs, I'd be happy if they were called Joeys, providing their needs were even half way met by this society.

Enough with the yoghurt knitting.

My wife works in care with adults with learning disabilities, I understand the issues they face. Having enough respect to use what is considered to be the acceptable term by the majority of those living with disabilities rather than a term that went out of common use about 30 years ago would appear good starting point.

Giving a censored is a good starting point.

Why is handicapped and worse than disabled?

"Dis" is negative.

That's awful.

Let's refer to people as para abled. Or alternatively abled. Or complementaritly abled.

That'll fix it.

Or make no fuxking difference whatsoever.

It makes a difference to those with disabilities. People get called out for using dated terminology for other minority groups, why do you think it doesn't matter for disabled people? Differently abled is also not liked by many disabled people as they think it trivialises their condition. Disabled isn't negative, it refers to the barriers that are put in place not their physical condition.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

The article seems to object to the term "people with disabilities".

Yeah, it's a subtle difference. As I understand it people with disabilities suggest the problem is with them. Disabled people is seen as they are having barriers put in their way.

It's just you opened up your previous post with "those with disabilities" and then linked to something suggesting that wasn't great language.

I suppose my point is that it isn't easy.

I agree but I'm surprised to see there are still people who think handicapped is an acceptable term.

Up untill this morning I did not know it was not acceptable and have no idea if I have been using it, as I have not been told off by anybody I am guessing not.

I was in exactly the same situation.
I have a disabled niece but I can’t ever recall referring to her as disabled.

To be offended: It’s almost as if it’s become fashionable.

It's been like that for that for while now.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

I have good manners but can't keep me up with all the latest rules.
I will do nothing intentionally so past that, meh.

There aren't rules, just conventions. And I think intent is half of it anyway.

There's no intent either way I wouldn't have thought.

You are correct some things have improved. But my experience has been that Covid has been very, very hard on the care sector. You hear about the elderly care homes, but not about other care settings. Because those people don't have much of a voice.

We have a friend with a daughter in long term care and the home just gave her back. She's 82 and now has a 55 year old special needs person to care for full time. And my brother in law had a lower quality of life and fewer rights afforded him in lockdown than someone in prison. That is no exaggeration.

I certainly don't mean that there is not still massive room for improvement. I also agree that people tend to focus on terminology as it is an easy thing for organisations to implement whereas sufficient staff and altering buildings is difficult and expensive.

Isn't the problem with sliding doors that the walls they slide into are then not strong enough for wall bar things? Doubled hinged makes more sense provided they can be locked one way very easily.

Depends how much space you have. Yes fixing into the side of a pocket door is tricky, but with a bit of thought you can find a way.

rjsterry

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Jezyboy said:

pblakeney said:

shirley_basso said:

First.Aspect said:

Meh. Society is still pretty much as censored as it was in the 1980s as far as I can see. Labels don't matter a jot. At least to those who don't know they are [ insert label here ].

I disagree that labels don't matter. Language is super important

Context and intent is more important.

I would have thought that part of intent is trying to use the correct terms though.

Does anyone have a list of approved terms? Call it newspeak if you wish.
It is a minefield which is nigh on impossible to keep up with unless it is a primary concern.

We've discussed this in another context before. There cannot be any approved list as different people have different views on what terms they are comfortable with. You just need to think about what you are saying and the context; that's all. If in doubt ask, or just be prepared to rephrase if someone takes it the wrong way. I think the fear of getting it wrong seems to have blown out of proportion.

A minefield, as I said.
I've got more pressing things to be concerned about. Much like most of society.

'in my day...'

It's just good manners, that's all.

I have good manners but can't keep me up with all the latest rules.
I will do nothing intentionally so past that, meh.

There aren't rules, just conventions. And I think intent is half of it anyway.

There's no intent either way I wouldn't have thought.

You are correct some things have improved. But my experience has been that Covid has been very, very hard on the care sector. You hear about the elderly care homes, but not about other care settings. Because those people don't have much of a voice.

We have a friend with a daughter in long term care and the home just gave her back. She's 82 and now has a 55 year old special needs person to care for full time. And my brother in law had a lower quality of life and fewer rights afforded him in lockdown than someone in prison. That is no exaggeration.

I certainly don't mean that there is not still massive room for improvement. I also agree that people tend to focus on terminology as it is an easy thing for organisations to implement whereas sufficient staff and altering buildings is difficult and expensive.

Isn't the problem with sliding doors that the walls they slide into are then not strong enough for wall bar things? Doubled hinged makes more sense provided they can be locked one way very easily.

Depends how much space you have. Yes fixing into the side of a pocket door is tricky, but with a bit of thought you can find a way.

The trouble is, people want rules with yes/no answers rather than considering each case on its merits.

First.Aspect

It's complicated, this architecty business.

TheBigBean

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

it is difficult to get your head around the fact that any measures including speed of vaccinations made no difference.

I wonder if in the UK eg the scale of deaths made the vaccine roll out more effective and that is why when the fear factor wore off it tailed off.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

surrey_commuter

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

am i right in thinking England had less strict restrictions and a slower vax rollout?

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

am i right in thinking England had less strict restrictions and a slower vax rollout?

I don't remember the vax rollout being much slower for the vulnerable population in England than the other UK nations. Could be mistaken. That was our big hit.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

it is difficult to get your head around the fact that any measures including speed of vaccinations made no difference.

I wonder if in the UK eg the scale of deaths made the vaccine roll out more effective and that is why when the fear factor wore off it tailed off.

Yes, I suspect the UK did well with vaccines because Alpha was spreading rapidly. I also suspect the UK probably could have done better in the first wave, so this offset the vaccines.

Nonetheless Sweden doing same as its neighbours is a turn up for the books.

wallace_and_gromit

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

am i right in thinking England had less strict restrictions and a slower vax rollout?

I think the English roll out was slower in absolute terms than a fair few other countries, but faster and more comprehensive (and therefore more effective overall) in the higher risk age groups. So England had circa 99% coverage of the 70+ age group and zero coverage of kids at a time when some other countries were at circa 90% coverage of the 70+ age group with signifcantly higher coverage of kids.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

I haven't read it all yet, but Ireland definitely did well.

Was surprised by Germany.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

South Korea done well, New Zealand done well. England not as bad as the other UK nations. Ireland good.

The thing that hit me now I've looked at it was the top line number. 18,200,000 global excess deaths estimated across the two years.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl1&pii=S0140-6736(21)02796-3

I haven't read it all yet, but Ireland definitely did well.

Was surprised by Germany.

They definitely seemed to be underreporting the omicron wave...

briantrumpet

First.Aspect said:

It's complicated, this architecty business.

What's quite unusual is that not everybody in CS is an expert on the subject.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

Nonetheless Sweden doing same as its neighbours is a turn up for the books.

Except Norway.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

Nonetheless Sweden doing same as its neighbours is a turn up for the books.

Except Norway.

Yes, so Norway is another stand out example that needs to be understood. There was discussion around it having a completely different system for care homes which must have helped, but presumably there are other reasons as well.

Stevo_666

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

Possibly because it didn't fit in with the narrative on here?

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

TheBigBean said:

I know everyone has moved on to being Ukraine experts, but I'm intrigued by how little discussion there has been about the paper on excess deaths.

Possibly because it didn't fit in with the narrative on here?

I think the narrative on here is that the UK could have done some things better (speed of locking down, people in power taking the mickey with regard to rule-following), but that some things were done well (vaccine roll-out, not going draconian with omicron). I've said all along that it's going to take ages for all the data to be analysed properly and conclusions to be drawn, given there are billions and billions of data points, and so many variables. It's probably going to take years, and even then won't ever be 'complete'.

The Lancet report is part of that analysis. What it should not be used for is covering up poor decisions (which pretty much every country has done, in one way or another), or for saying all approaches would have had the same outcome in all circumstances.

kingstongraham

I'm a bit confused by Denmark - they look to have thrown away a very good position. Did they have low vaccine take up?

This is a graph of the official figures for percentage monthly excess deaths from the EU website for Denmark and Sweden for 2020 and 2021. From April 2021 they had consistently higher numbers.



We threw our advantage away right at the start rather than waiting for a year before doing it.