So who now for the Yellow Jersey ?

takethehighroad

sherer wrote:

doubt they will do but id love to see a GT with no high climbs, so you had more people who could win it. Keep the likes of Sagan etc in contention for longer and force the mountain goats to do something different to win

Do you mean like the Dauphine we just had? That didn't go higher than about 1600m?

Dorset_Boy

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

sherer wrote:

doubt they will do but id love to see a GT with no high climbs, so you had more people who could win it. Keep the likes of Sagan etc in contention for longer and force the mountain goats to do something different to win

Do you mean like the Dauphine we just had? That didn't go higher than about 1600m?

I think he means a TdF with no Cat 1 or HC climbs. :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll: :? :?
Just so the fat boys might have a chance.

timothyw

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

For whatever reason, the decision is that these events should be decided in the mountains, so this is what the parcours are set up for.

Certainly time trials are more vulnerable to technological/financial doping, which is to say the team that can spend millions on wind tunnel testing and better tech will always have the advantage, whereas in the mountains it is arguably a more pure test of the rider.

Would be nice to see a team/alliance of strong rouleurs put the climbers to the sword once in a while though - generally speaking though the peloton has enough workers to bring such moves back or at least minimise losses.

rick_chasey

Bernal is obviously the real deal, but he is only 22. I mean, the last time someone that young won it was 36 years ago.

sherer

Dorset Boy wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

sherer wrote:

doubt they will do but id love to see a GT with no high climbs, so you had more people who could win it. Keep the likes of Sagan etc in contention for longer and force the mountain goats to do something different to win

Do you mean like the Dauphine we just had? That didn't go higher than about 1600m?

I think he means a TdF with no Cat 1 or HC climbs. :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll: :? :?
Just so the fat boys might have a chance.

yes that's what im referring too.

Maybe a few punchy finishes like Fleche type Muur as a stage finish. Although maybe my desire for this is because I was a Cancellara fan and now support Sagan , neither of whom can win a GT

DeVlaeminck

TimothyW wrote:

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

.

The winners are rarely poor TTers already though. If you look at Indurain, Ulrich, Thomas,Armstrong, Froome, Evans, Wiggins just off the top of my head - they were all either excellent or at least very good in a TT. More TT miles isn't going to bring rouleurs into the equation it'll just eliminate from contention the climbers without a TT .

Pross

sherer wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

sherer wrote:

doubt they will do but id love to see a GT with no high climbs, so you had more people who could win it. Keep the likes of Sagan etc in contention for longer and force the mountain goats to do something different to win

Do you mean like the Dauphine we just had? That didn't go higher than about 1600m?

I think he means a TdF with no Cat 1 or HC climbs. :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll: :? :?
Just so the fat boys might have a chance.

yes that's what im referring too.

Maybe a few punchy finishes like Fleche type Muur as a stage finish. Although maybe my desire for this is because I was a Cancellara fan and now support Sagan , neither of whom can win a GT

So you want a GT for Classics riders to win? Why not just leave it so that different types of riders have different events to concentrate on?

rick_chasey

TimothyW wrote:

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

For whatever reason, the decision is that these events should be decided in the mountains, so this is what the parcours are set up for.

Certainly time trials are more vulnerable to technological/financial doping, which is to say the team that can spend millions on wind tunnel testing and better tech will always have the advantage, whereas in the mountains it is arguably a more pure test of the rider.

Would be nice to see a team/alliance of strong rouleurs put the climbers to the sword once in a while though - generally speaking though the peloton has enough workers to bring such moves back or at least minimise losses.

What is it with people always wanting the big lads to do well.

They have the whole cobbled classics and usually around half of a stage race to have terrain that suits their size.

What else do the small lads have? Aren't many sports where being small is advantageous.

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

.

The winners are rarely poor TTers already though. If you look at Indurain, Ulrich, Thomas,Armstrong, Froome, Evans, Wiggins just off the top of my head - they were all either excellent or at least very good in a TT. More TT miles isn't going to bring rouleurs into the equation it'll just eliminate from contention the climbers without a TT .

Exactly, the winners for as long as I can remember other than Pantani (and Schleck via a recount) have been climbers who can TT or TTers that can hold on in the mountains along with the obvious requirement to be able to recover and hold form for 3 weeks.

timothyw

Yeah, to be honest, podium is unlikely to be affected by more TT miles as usually the best all rounders are the winners regardless.

Would potentially shake up the top ten however (where usually the climbers without a TT are found).

Race motivations are complicated - rouleurs like Tony Martin will often deliberately lose time in order to have a better chance on breakaways - with a more realistic prospect of a placing this might not happen, and we might see more of them in the GC rankings.

Certainly at the moment the routes tend to be geared towards climbers with a decent TT, rather than time trialers who can climb.

You can argue that in the 90s it was the other way round, so the best climbers might be going after the mountain jerseys instead of GC (eg Virenque) and the best time triallists (Indurain, Rominger etc) only had to manage losses in the mountains.

It's rare that the mountains competition nowadays is taken by the best climber, so much as a decent climber with a good sprint to nick the points.

FocusZing

Rick Chasey wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

For whatever reason, the decision is that these events should be decided in the mountains, so this is what the parcours are set up for.

Certainly time trials are more vulnerable to technological/financial doping, which is to say the team that can spend millions on wind tunnel testing and better tech will always have the advantage, whereas in the mountains it is arguably a more pure test of the rider.

Would be nice to see a team/alliance of strong rouleurs put the climbers to the sword once in a while though - generally speaking though the peloton has enough workers to bring such moves back or at least minimise losses.

What is it with people always wanting the big lads to do well.

They have the whole cobbled classics and usually around half of a stage race to have terrain that suits their size.

What else do the small lads have? Aren't many sports where being small is advantageous.

In horse racing large blokes are completely discriminated against, It's outrageous!

timothyw

Rick Chasey wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

The Giro didn't feel particularly hilly this year, although total elevation figures seem to have eluded my very brief search.

Part of the problem is of course the miserably small amount of TT miles in the grand tours nowadays - a mere fraction of what was in the tour twenty and thirty years ago (and the TTs are rarely flat, often involving a couple of climbs).

For whatever reason, the decision is that these events should be decided in the mountains, so this is what the parcours are set up for.

Certainly time trials are more vulnerable to technological/financial doping, which is to say the team that can spend millions on wind tunnel testing and better tech will always have the advantage, whereas in the mountains it is arguably a more pure test of the rider.

Would be nice to see a team/alliance of strong rouleurs put the climbers to the sword once in a while though - generally speaking though the peloton has enough workers to bring such moves back or at least minimise losses.

What is it with people always wanting the big lads to do well.

They have the whole cobbled classics and usually around half of a stage race to have terrain that suits their size.

What else do the small lads have? Aren't many sports where being small is advantageous.

In my case it's big lad solidarity.... that and the impracticality of me rowing/downhill skiing to work.

kingstongraham

It's brilliant not having a clue who's going to win, isn't it?

Pross

TimothyW wrote:

Certainly at the moment the routes tend to be geared towards climbers with a decent TT, rather than time trialers who can climb.

I would argue that Wiggins was definitely a TTer that could climb rather than the other way around and even though Geraint won on the Alpe I struggle to think of him as a climber first and foremost. Froome is probably equally as good as a climber and TTer although if I had to put him in one or the other I would probably say climber.

daniel_b

The Yates brothers have improved their TT performances hugely.

timothyw

Pross wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Certainly at the moment the routes tend to be geared towards climbers with a decent TT, rather than time trialers who can climb.

I would argue that Wiggins was definitely a TTer that could climb rather than the other way around and even though Geraint won on the Alpe I struggle to think of him as a climber first and foremost. Froome is probably equally as good as a climber and TTer although if I had to put him in one or the other I would probably say climber.

Yeah, Wiggins won a tour that had 100km of flat TT, and this was his only Grand Tour victory. It proves my point really.

Froome is an excellent time triallist by any standard but his only podium at the worlds TT was the very hilly one in 2017, to go with his two Olympic bronzes in TT - given his era-defining talent for grand tours you can argue this is underperformance, more realistically though he is a climber who can also TT.

timothyw

Geraint is an interesting one though certainly, as historically I would have regarded him more as a time trialer/rouleur - bottom line though is that he won two successive summit finishes last year, so regardless of whether his time trial is stronger than his climbing, it was his climbing that won it.

RichN95.

TimothyW wrote:

Froome is an excellent time triallist by any standard but his only podium at the worlds TT was the very hilly one in 2017, to go with his two Olympic bronzes in TT - given his era-defining talent for grand tours you can argue this is underperformance, more realistically though he is a climber who can also TT.

However, those three medals are the only three times he's done a TT in a GB jersey since his Barloworld days.

Turning up has been his problem, not the TTing itself.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Froome is an excellent time triallist by any standard but his only podium at the worlds TT was the very hilly one in 2017, to go with his two Olympic bronzes in TT - given his era-defining talent for grand tours you can argue this is underperformance, more realistically though he is a climber who can also TT.

However, those three medals are the only three times he's done a TT in a GB jersey since his Barloworld days.

Turning up has been his problem, not the TTing itself.

Those TT recons are very dangerous .

rick_chasey

If this heatwave hits and hangs around for the Tour you'll have to re-write the list of favourites, as some clearly do better/worse in the heat than others.

You can almost fuggetabout Poels entirely, for example.

Mountains09

I'm actually starting to really look forward to this tour after some initial disappointment that Froome had crashed out.

We'll really see what Thomas is made of, things went perfectly in the run up to the tour last year, this year not so. I'm intrigued to see how he handles things this time round. Fuglsang is an interesting one too, looks to be in great form but never seems to have done it over three weeks. Quintana and Porte will be as per usual as far as I can see. Pinot always seems to have a bad day.

I think if Bernal can get to the third week without losing anytime major time or crashing and holds form, everyone including Thomas will have trouble holding onto him on those mountain stages.

pblakeney

Mountains09 wrote:

I think if Bernal can get to the third week without losing anytime major time or crashing and holds form, everyone including Thomas will have trouble holding onto him on those mountain stages.

Not if Thomas is in the lead he won't. Team orders.

mididoctors

Both bernal and Dennis looked the part there.

alanparsons

As well as the Yellow Jersey fight I am looking forward to the Green Jersey too.
I don't think Sagan is going to have it all his own way this year, I think Matthews and Van Aert should at least keep him on his toes, hopefully they all make it to the third week.
I reckon Ackermann is going to be the sprinter to beat, so consistent finishes and break-aways are going to be key.
At the moment I am not convinced the Cav is going to feature much this tour, I will get a better look at him next week as he is riding the UK nationals here in Norwich next Sunday.

RichN95.

alanparsons wrote:

As well as the Yellow Jersey fight I am looking forward to the Green Jersey too.
I don't think Sagan is going to have it all his own way this year, I think Matthews and Van Aert should at least keep him on his toes, hopefully they all make it to the third week.

Van Aert won't be doing the sprints though - Groenewegen will.

RichN95.

I'm just going to place this here.



I'm just hoping it doesn't go the same way as my 150/1 bet on Kruijswijk for the 2016 Giro

mididoctors

RichN95 wrote:

I'm just going to place this here.



I'm just hoping it doesn't go the same way as my 150/1 bet on Kruijswijk for the 2016 Giro

What's the odds for a top 5 on him?

rick_chasey

That TdS top 10 overall is pretty weak isn’t it?

joey54321

alanparsons wrote:

As well as the Yellow Jersey fight I am looking forward to the Green Jersey too.
I don't think Sagan is going to have it all his own way this year, I think Matthews and Van Aert should at least keep him on his toes, hopefully they all make it to the third week.
I reckon Ackermann is going to be the sprinter to beat, so consistent finishes and break-aways are going to be key.
At the moment I am not convinced the Cav is going to feature much this tour, I will get a better look at him next week as he is riding the UK nationals here in Norwich next Sunday.

Matthews has already winged and moaned about Tom D not doing the Tour, and as Matthews was training specifically to help in that role that his form isn't 'right' to win stages. Such a self-centered ****.

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

That TdS top 10 overall is pretty weak isn’t it?

Maybe those two are flattered by company but they were at a different level. The daupine was the toughest race out of the 4 prep races ..maybe too hard? I am still not clear on what these races have revealed.