May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

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  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    rjsterry wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    A nice assessment of columnists and Boris Johnson in particular, by Matthew Parris.
    There is communism; there is capitalism, Conservatism, Catholicism — and there is columnism. It’s a cast of mind. Its practitioners are a type. First, foremost and for ever, Boris will be a columnist. The reflections on his and my trade which follow should be read also as thoughts on Johnson himself.

    Columnism is striking poses which (as any method actor will tell you) will only convince others if you yourself can temporarily inhabit the belief. You are counsel for the prosecution or defence of an idea, or dream, or fear, hatred, party or politician. You take a brief, elbow doubt and ambiguity aside, and go — joyously or ferociously but always (in the moment) with passion and conviction — full pelt. What columnism is not is making absolutely sure first that you’re right. To be frank, you sometimes rather doubt it.

    Columnism is embracing a plan or project as a faithless man might embrace a woman: with an intensity no less sincere for being passing, ever-ready to flip the project or lady once their usefulness is past. It is hugging a set of principles fiercely to your breast while (should these principles not work out) keeping a wandering eye out for some spare ones down the back of the sofa.

    I think he's spot on with that.

    Though to be fair it would save a lot of words just to describe him as a tw@t and a khunt and an utter steaming sh1t. But otherwise it is spot on!

    It would save words but would provide no insight. I don't think he's likely to be insulted out of office. When you read some of his writing from across the last couple of decades it all fits into this analysis. He believes in nothing and everything.

    You're right of course but what use is insight. He's gone from being a no hoper to become PM to be a guaranteed cert due to the spinelessness of the party and the woeful quality of its MPs. What Matthew says so well has been obvious for many years; it doesn't stop Boris though any more than the insults (though, to be fair, an insult is only really an insult if it isn't demonstrably the truth eg calling the racist liar Trump a racist liar isn't an insult. It's just a factual description of a racist liar).
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,486
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical

    Yes, quite right. What we absolutely do not want in politicians is ambition.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical
    To a degree ...

    Has Politics changed in recent decades? What was the quality of leaders last century? Were they all inflexible or were they swayed to their parties decisions?
    One thing is for sure - they didn't get the media grilling they do these days - with instant publishing and in-depth analysis of everything that they utter - or even what they don't utter ... they seem to be expected to have THE answer for everything - perhaps not unreasonably given the current circumstances ...
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...

    so after becoming PM what will be his new career goals? to not be the shortest term PM ever? to do longer than DC? can't believe he would aspire to a decade. Is no deal a bigger threat than delayed Brexit or a second referendum?

    I am always struck by his initial comment in the Commons that the referendum was a way to strengthen our hand to get better terms within the EU. I suspect deep down this would be his preferred option (if it kept him in power)
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    rjsterry wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical

    Yes, quite right. What we absolutely do not want in politicians is ambition.

    It's possible to be ambitious whilst at the same time caring about your current job. Suggesting that there is a choice of 100% ambition or 0% ambition is a bit like suggesting that the country voted for a no deal brexit.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Rolf F wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical

    Yes, quite right. What we absolutely do not want in politicians is ambition.

    It's possible to be ambitious whilst at the same time caring about your current job. Suggesting that there is a choice of 100% ambition or 0% ambition is a bit like suggesting that the country voted for a no deal brexit.

    Of course you can be ambitious and care about your current job. My point was that ambition and more specifically, wanting to progress your career isn't a character flaw. It was a sarcastic response prompted by a lazy stereotype.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    rjsterry wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical

    Yes, quite right. What we absolutely do not want in politicians is ambition.

    It's possible to be ambitious whilst at the same time caring about your current job. Suggesting that there is a choice of 100% ambition or 0% ambition is a bit like suggesting that the country voted for a no deal brexit.

    Of course you can be ambitious and care about your current job. My point was that ambition and more specifically, wanting to progress your career isn't a character flaw. It was a sarcastic response prompted by a lazy stereotype.

    The noble Brutus
    Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
    And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it.
    Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest–
    For Brutus is an honourable man;
    So are they all, all honourable men–
    Come I to speak in Caesar’s funeral.
    He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
    But Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And Brutus is an honourable man.
    He hath brought many captives home to Rome
    Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
    Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
    When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
    Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And Brutus is an honourable man.
    You all did see that on the Lupercal
    I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
    Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And, sure, he is an honourable man.
    I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
    But here I am to speak what I do know.
    You all did love him once, not without cause:
    What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
    O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
    And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
    My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
    And I must pause till it come back to me.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    rjsterry wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's useful to know that the things he professes to believe in are for the purposes of his leadership campaign only.

    I have often thought that a leader should be just the face of the group they're leading - they don't need to come up with all the ideas, they don't need to believe in all the ideas - they must lead what the group has decided - and trust that their group is making the right decisions ...
    now I realise that describes BJ ...
    Do you really think that? I think the first half may be right but the second half? He doesn't care what the group decides - he ignores it. His lack of believe in the ideas is not based on trust in the group but simply what response will further his career.
    perhaps ... totally agree that he seems to do whatever it'll take to further his career ...
    I suspect you could aim that accusation at the vast majority of politicians, of all persuasions.
    #cynical

    Yes, quite right. What we absolutely do not want in politicians is ambition.

    It's possible to be ambitious whilst at the same time caring about your current job. Suggesting that there is a choice of 100% ambition or 0% ambition is a bit like suggesting that the country voted for a no deal brexit.

    Of course you can be ambitious and care about your current job. My point was that ambition and more specifically, wanting to progress your career isn't a character flaw. It was a sarcastic response prompted by a lazy stereotype.

    But doing "whatever it'll take to further his career" isn't the same as having ambition. The lazy stereotype was wrong in that most politicians are in it to do good for a least a section of the community (however misguided you may think their means of achieving it), and not purely for personal ambition. The minority are in it for purely personal enrichment.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,486
    It is a lazy stereotype born from experience. Show me a politician putting Country before career.
    #notborncynical
    #stereotypesexistforareason
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    Cloud at the wrong time.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    I had a conversation with the then Leader of the Council once - it's about the only time I've had a conversation with a politician - he had some good advice - he was asking after a colleague/friend - I explained he was in the process of splitting with his wife and baby .. his response "tell him to stop fucking around and get back with his wife." meant and taken in all seriousness - and passed on the same.
    No idea what he was like as a politician - I didn't then, and don't now "do" politics.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    PBlakeney wrote:
    It is a lazy stereotype born from experience. Show me a politician putting Country before career.
    #notborncynical
    #stereotypesexistforareason

    Leo Amery. Despite the unfortunate fact that one of his sons was hanged in the Tower of London.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,486
    Robert88 wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    It is a lazy stereotype born from experience. Show me a politician putting Country before career.
    #notborncynical
    #stereotypesexistforareason

    Leo Amery. Despite the unfortunate fact that one of his sons was hanged in the Tower of London.
    If you have to go that far back then it kind of proves the point about today.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    PBlakeney wrote:
    It is a lazy stereotype born from experience. Show me a politician putting Country before career.
    #notborncynical
    #stereotypesexistforareason

    Seriously, even in the current parliament where lots of MPs have been voting against their own party and to the detriment of their career?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    PBlakeney wrote:
    It is a lazy stereotype born from experience. Show me a politician putting Country before career.
    #notborncynical
    #stereotypesexistforareason
    Dominic Grieve, Nick Boles, Jess Philips, Tom Brake off the top of my head. Obviously some will disagree vigorously with the way they have chosen to go about it, but they can hardly be said to be climbing the greasy pole.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Interesting speech from May and some good points made, but a lot of it sounded as though someone else had been running the country for the last 3 years.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    rjsterry wrote:
    Interesting speech from May and some good points made, but a lot of it sounded as though someone else had been running the country for the last 3 years.
    Did she say it was the EU? :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    rjsterry wrote:
    Interesting speech from May and some good points made, but a lot of it sounded as though someone else had been running the country for the last 3 years.

    Yes, that was my immediate thought too.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,486
    verylonglegs wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Interesting speech from May and some good points made, but a lot of it sounded as though someone else had been running the country for the last 3 years.

    Yes, that was my immediate thought too.
    She stopped just shy of calling them back stabbing bar stewards. More subtle than Major.

    Re Grieve - Going against the next failure of a PM is looking at the long game.
    Nick Boles - Same.
    Jess Phillips - Going for Corbyn's position.
    Tom Brake - Fair point. But he wouldn't be noticed were it not for the two big parties tearing themselves apart.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    PBlakeney wrote:
    verylonglegs wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Interesting speech from May and some good points made, but a lot of it sounded as though someone else had been running the country for the last 3 years.

    Yes, that was my immediate thought too.
    She stopped just shy of calling them back stabbing bar stewards. More subtle than Major.

    Re Grieve - Going against the next failure of a PM is looking at the long game.
    Nick Boles - Same.
    Jess Phillips - Going for Corbyn's position.
    Tom Brake - Fair point. But he wouldn't be noticed were it not for the two big parties tearing themselves apart.
    I thought you wanted MPs to not be noticed. Grieve will be lucky to keep his seat if there's a GE. Boles is no longer a member of a party so will need to join another to win a seat at the next GE. He'll need to join a party, then get selected as a candidate, win that seat and then work his way up. More likely he will change career entirely.

    Anyway what is this experience you mention?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited July 2019
    Robin Cook is the obvious example.

    Helps that he’s dead so he can’t ruin his legacy.
    _
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,269
    There was a breakfast meeting this morning between business leaders various and de Pfeffel. (I have my sources, redacted works for redacted etc etc.) I trust said redacted went armed with a baseball bat to knock some sense into that f-wit.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    orraloon wrote:
    There was a breakfast meeting this morning between business leaders various and de Pfeffel. (I have my sources, redacted works for redacted etc etc.) I trust said redacted went armed with a baseball bat to knock some sense into that f-wit.

    I guess de pFeffel is a near relative of covFefe
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    Anyone else watching 'The invention of Boris Jognson' on Channel 4?

    Quite interesting but it might raise a few peoples blood pressure :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,486
    rjsterry wrote:
    I thought you wanted MPs to not be noticed. Grieve will be lucky to keep his seat if there's a GE. Boles is no longer a member of a party so will need to join another to win a seat at the next GE. He'll need to join a party, then get selected as a candidate, win that seat and then work his way up. More likely he will change career entirely.

    Anyway what is this experience you mention?
    Not made myself clear then. I simply want them to put the job at least on a par with personal gain. As per the point made earlier, it is possible to be successful without shafting everyone. They got better after the expenses scandal but are simply playing the game better. It is getting to the stage now that some don't appear to have got the memo and don't care, until it goes to court.
    Current batch of MPs will have sussed out that a coalition is most likely soon and will be positioning themselves to be active in that. Better a big fish in a small coalition party than a back bench for a big party.
    Experience? Viewing and voting from the 70s. Not got a clue who to vote for today.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.

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