Wife of ISIS fighter wants to return to the UK
Comments
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Stevo 666 wrote:
Well your post above me laugh GooMr Goo wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:rjsterry wrote:Mr Goo wrote:john80 wrote:Rolf F wrote:Do tell me where I have "repeatedly misquoted your words". And in what way. Where have I claimed to have been misquoted? Your words are your words and I have just used the quote button; they condemn you without any input from myself. I was talking about misinterpretation which is an entirely different thing but if you can't tell the difference between the two then there's really no hope is there?
Incidentally, what words are you happy with in the circumstances of Shamima and her husband? I think you are one of those who complains that Begum comes across as not repentant enough yet if her husband says he is repentant (ie disillusioned just in case you get stroppy again over me misquoting you!) then you complain about that too. It really does confirm that you don't believe in innocence til proven guilty doesn't it?
PS I'm not American so I don't "Go figure"
I listened to her husbands interview. He does not see a problem in marrying a 15 year old as apparently it was her choice. He does not seem to be the dimmest character so I will assume that he knows that this is both illegal in the UK and Holland and there is good reasons for these laws. In fact the legal age is 18 in Holland unless you can get the consent of the minister of justice and the parents which I can't imagine is common. Now if we look at the Yasidi sex slaves then around 12 seems OK from a ISIS point of view for a bride which is basically religious supported paedophilia.
He does not see a problem with joining a terrorist organisation and killing people presumably regarded as infidels as even the dumbest moron would realise that is what joining ISIS would entail. He appears to have taken part or witnessed a stoning of a woman accused of infidelity. But the good news is they stopped when she ran away. Good to see there is some honour in the practice of stoning. He then only seems to have a problem with this when ISIS apparently locked him up and tortured him. Only then does he realise he has taken for granted the freedoms of a western culture. If I was a prisoner of the Syrian forces I would be saying all this stuff to try to get me off whatever penalties the Syrian authorities are willing to dish out and maximise my chances of returning to Holland. Self interest is very much running in this case. Have you ever considered that he might be lying about ISIS locking him up to gain a bit more sympathy.
I have corrected your misrepresentation of my use of human on two occasions but yet you are still pushing a racist agenda. Its not racist to expect western citizens to comply with norms of western society whether in their home western culture or abroad its just common sense. He might wish for his family life to be returned but holding him in Syria with Holland doing very little to assist his return suits all western governments as a warning to all those who think that leaving your home country to join a terrorist organisation is a good idea. Both he and his illegal wife can be the poster peeps of consequence. This for all the moral hand ringing on here is worth something even if people cannot admit it.
A well reasoned and cogent assessment of the situation that 99.9% of western civilians would agree with in the most part. Unfortunately John you are arguing with the 0.1% who don't see it that way and they all ride carbon or titanium road bikes and have degrees in sociology and politics. They are always right, you should know that.
Don't waste your time or energy trying to fight your corner. You'll get accused of being narrow minded, right wing and racist as I have constantly found out.
At least you haven't had text altered and requoted.
Just make your point known and move on.
Comedy gold. Thanks for that, Goo.
If he wanted that section in bold he would have done it himself. On his behalf I demand an apology by 6pm or he will be forced to tell somebody.
SurreyCommie.
Just read your comment. I'm laughing so much the tears are rolling down my legs.
Chapeau to the funniest man in the home counties.
Reminded me of this little bit of satire that I've posted on here before:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/11/17/iraqi-born-writer-brutally-satirizes-liberals-who-refuse-to-blame-islamic-terrorists-for-their-atrocities
I just can't for the life of me think who on here would fit the picture of a hand wringing liberal... 0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
I can't speak for others and I live in Scotland so can't really be described as the 'London set'. From my point of view this has absolutely nothing to do with morals, intelect, left, right or liberalism. From a dispassionate, pragmatic look at the rules we have in place I can't see any legal justification for removing this person's citizenship. I would prefer she wasn't on the planet anymore but killing people without trial isn't allowed within our rules so the next best thing is to let her return and arrest her immediately, then charge her with the strongest crimes we have as per our long established legal system.
I can definitely understand your point of view however, and the public will need to see some sort of real justice being done.
I can also understand why everyone took the mick out of someone calling people 'terrorist sympathiser' though, because it totally misses the point of the debate...0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than thatAlejandrosdog wrote:I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.
All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.
Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.
Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.
I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.
If the rule of law were that important to you you would understand the mechanism by which the Begum has been stripped of her citizenship.
section 40(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 allows the Home Secretary by order deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public good.
Thats what the law says. Is this an exception to your no exceptions rule? Perhaps it's no exceptions unless it doesn't fit?
If you want to get into a discussion about Britains other obligations vis a vie not making people stateless i'm happy to.
let her go to the Princely State.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than thatAlejandrosdog wrote:I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.
All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.
Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.
Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.
I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.
You keep banging on about a rules based approach whilst seemingly appearing blind to the rules based legal process followed. Javid takes some legal advice and removes citizenship on the basis that technically she is still a Bangladeshi citizen till she is 21 under Bangladeshi law due to her mum. Whether she has ever been to Bangladesh seems not to matter to this legal advice. The family wish to challenge this through our very own legal system. You seem to think that you know the answer before this happens. Do you spend your time going to criminal trials and shouting out innocent or guilty before the process in the court room is complete or do you let due process apply.0 -
HaydenM wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
I can't speak for others and I live in Scotland so can't really be described as the 'London set'. From my point of view this has absolutely nothing to do with morals, intelect, left, right or liberalism. From a dispassionate, pragmatic look at the rules we have in place I can't see any legal justification for removing this person's citizenship. I would prefer she wasn't on the planet anymore but killing people without trial isn't allowed within our rules so the next best thing is to let her return and arrest her immediately, then charge her with the strongest crimes we have as per our long established legal system.
I can definitely understand your point of view however, and the public will need to see some sort of real justice being done.
I can also understand why everyone took the mick out of someone calling people 'terrorist sympathiser' though, because it totally misses the point of the debate...
the legal justification comes from section 40(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 “by order deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public good”0 -
My understanding was that Javid was either given duff legal advice or winged it, since lots of proper lawyer types who know have said he will lose the case.0
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Javid admitted as much:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... itizenshipSajid Javid has indicated it could prove hugely difficult to strip Shamima Begum of her UK citizenship, telling MPs such action would not normally be taken against someone without another nationality and who was born in Britain.
Answering questions before the home affairs committee, Javid refused to discuss specifically the case of the 19-year-old, who travelled from east London to Syria to join Islamic State in 2015, but wants to return with her newborn baby.
But speaking more generally about the policy of stripping citizenship from UK nationals who are deemed a danger to the country, the home secretary said this action had never been taken if it would have left someone stateless.
“If an individual only has one citizenship, then generally the power cannot be used because by definition if you took away their British citizenship they would be stateless,” Javid said in answer to a question from the former Labour MP John Woodcock.0 -
Imposter wrote:john80 wrote:I listened to her husbands interview. He does not see a problem in marrying a 15 year old as apparently it was her choice. He does not seem to be the dimmest character so I will assume that he knows that this is both illegal in the UK and Holland and there is good reasons for these laws. In fact the legal age is 18 in Holland unless you can get the consent of the minister of justice and the parents which I can't imagine is common. Now if we look at the Yasidi sex slaves then around 12 seems OK from a ISIS point of view for a bride which is basically religious supported paedophilia.
In the Victorian era, the UK age of consent was 13. Up until 1885. Paragons of virtue, those Victorians. In Nigeria, it's currently set at 11. In Japan it's still 13. 14 in Austria. Judging others by your extrapolation of domestic consent laws makes you look like you haven't thought about it.
You might want to read this page below. As always whilst the headline rate in Japan for example may be low their society has taken steps to bring their ages more in line with ours. Turns out they had a think about it when they came up with their local laws.
https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan
Turns out Austria has a penal code for more than a 3 year age gap and for cases of people under the age of 16 who are unable to provide consent. Have you thought about your comment above. Good news is Albania is still 14 but then they do have a problem with stuff like this.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 19901.html0 -
john80 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than thatAlejandrosdog wrote:I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.
All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.
Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.
Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.
I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.
You keep banging on about a rules based approach whilst seemingly appearing blind to the rules based legal process followed. Javid takes some legal advice and removes citizenship on the basis that technically she is still a Bangladeshi citizen till she is 21 under Bangladeshi law due to her mum. Whether she has ever been to Bangladesh seems not to matter to this legal advice. The family wish to challenge this through our very own legal system. You seem to think that you know the answer before this happens. Do you spend your time going to criminal trials and shouting out innocent or guilty before the process in the court room is complete or do you let due process apply.
Not to start an argument again but there's been a fair bit of calling for her death and disregarding the law based on emotional reactions* from the other side of this debate, seems a bit disingenuous to start talking about this now (not suggesting it was you, I can't keep track of this conversation).
*at least that's how it could be construed anyway0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:
the legal justification comes from section 40(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 “by order deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public good”[/quote]Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg said “under our law she is entitled to return”, but said she should the “law should continue to take its course if she has committed offences”.
He added: “Though, one has to think that a 15-year-old, there may be an extent that she is more sinned against than sinning when she went out there.
“I would be reluctant to be too harsh in charging, in this instance.”0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:My understanding was that Javid was either given duff legal advice or winged it, since lots of proper lawyer types who know have said he will lose the case.
we have a system of appeals.
you may well yet get the terrorist back as you desire0 -
Robert88 wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:
the legal justification comes from section 40(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981 “by order deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that deprivation is conducive to the public good”
[/quote]Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg said “under our law she is entitled to return”, but said she should the “law should continue to take its course if she has committed offences”.
He added: “Though, one has to think that a 15-year-old, there may be an extent that she is more sinned against than sinning when she went out there.
“I would be reluctant to be too harsh in charging, in this instance.”
Are you suggesting Rees Mogg s opinion carries more weight than the law?0 -
HaydenM wrote:john80 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than thatAlejandrosdog wrote:I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.
All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.
Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.
Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.
I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.
You keep banging on about a rules based approach whilst seemingly appearing blind to the rules based legal process followed. Javid takes some legal advice and removes citizenship on the basis that technically she is still a Bangladeshi citizen till she is 21 under Bangladeshi law due to her mum. Whether she has ever been to Bangladesh seems not to matter to this legal advice. The family wish to challenge this through our very own legal system. You seem to think that you know the answer before this happens. Do you spend your time going to criminal trials and shouting out innocent or guilty before the process in the court room is complete or do you let due process apply.
Not to start an argument again but there's been a fair bit of calling for her death and disregarding the law based on emotional reactions* from the other side of this debate, seems a bit disingenuous to start talking about this now (not suggesting it was you, I can't keep track of this conversation).
*at least that's how it could be construed anyway
It could also be construed that there are those who have prejudged the law to have been broken as they do not like Javid's approach which is an equally emotional response. The UK government has tried this trick twice before against Bangladeshi citizens and lost because they were over the age of 21. This time they have chosen to do this before she turns 21. The essential issue is that until the appeal is heard no one can know if the law is being disregarded as it is not up to forum posters to decide as we are not part of this process. Prior posts have detailed the sections of law she has clearly breached and the only remaining question is whether she is left stateless or not. The home secretary has taken a view and the appeals court will take their view. This is currently the process so to say that in following the process is to disregard the law is disingenuous at best as this is flawed by the fact that the legal appeal has not been held. By this logic all revocation of citizens rights by a home secretary could be construed as disregarding the law. I am sure that someone will be along in a minute to suggest that she has not even managed to breach the first test of the law on public good has not been met in addition to the stateless question such is the stupidity of modern Britain.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.
Get a grip, Begum has left the refugee camp to destination currently unknown.
its not as easy as wandering over to Southern Europe as you make it sound, the internet thing is a problem where ever these people are and as for revokation of citizenship for the several hundred terrorists thats not an option because its against the law.
If you're going to make asinine comments like "have the balls not to run away when someone challenges you" it might be better if you did challenge. Of course if youre going to bang on about the law and then conveniently ignore the laws that you dont like or like others here start quoting what a back bench politicians views are as some kind of trump card then really there isnt much point discussing this with you. Just read the guardian, the socialist worker or whatever work of fiction chakrabati has produced most recently.0 -
john80 wrote:HaydenM wrote:john80 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than thatAlejandrosdog wrote:I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.
All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.
Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.
Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.
I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.
You keep banging on about a rules based approach whilst seemingly appearing blind to the rules based legal process followed. Javid takes some legal advice and removes citizenship on the basis that technically she is still a Bangladeshi citizen till she is 21 under Bangladeshi law due to her mum. Whether she has ever been to Bangladesh seems not to matter to this legal advice. The family wish to challenge this through our very own legal system. You seem to think that you know the answer before this happens. Do you spend your time going to criminal trials and shouting out innocent or guilty before the process in the court room is complete or do you let due process apply.
Not to start an argument again but there's been a fair bit of calling for her death and disregarding the law based on emotional reactions* from the other side of this debate, seems a bit disingenuous to start talking about this now (not suggesting it was you, I can't keep track of this conversation).
*at least that's how it could be construed anyway
It could also be construed that there are those who have prejudged the law to have been broken as they do not like Javid's approach which is an equally emotional response. The UK government has tried this trick twice before against Bangladeshi citizens and lost because they were over the age of 21. This time they have chosen to do this before she turns 21. The essential issue is that until the appeal is heard no one can know if the law is being disregarded as it is not up to forum posters to decide as we are not part of this process. Prior posts have detailed the sections of law she has clearly breached and the only remaining question is whether she is left stateless or not. The home secretary has taken a view and the appeals court will take their view. This is currently the process so to say that in following the process is to disregard the law is disingenuous at best as this is flawed by the fact that the legal appeal has not been held. By this logic all revocation of citizens rights by a home secretary could be construed as disregarding the law. I am sure that someone will be along in a minute to suggest that she has not even managed to breach the first test of the law on public good has not been met in addition to the stateless question such is the stupidity of modern Britain.
Well obviously not but that is the point of debating things on a forum...
Again, I can't speak for others but the only disagreement I have here is people are saying she shouldn't be allowed back and are calling for blood and whatnot, I'm saying that she should go through the legal process. I don't agree with Javid but if it stands up in court then fine. It's quite reasonable to debate the merits of what Javid is doing without being accused of being a 'terrorist sympathiser' or even a lefty liberal with no life experience, I know which is most offensive though.
The disregarding the law part is aimed at people who just want her shot with a drone and no process followed...0 -
Mr Goo wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:rjsterry wrote:Mr Goo wrote:john80 wrote:Rolf F wrote:Do tell me where I have "repeatedly misquoted your words". And in what way. Where have I claimed to have been misquoted? Your words are your words and I have just used the quote button; they condemn you without any input from myself. I was talking about misinterpretation which is an entirely different thing but if you can't tell the difference between the two then there's really no hope is there?
Incidentally, what words are you happy with in the circumstances of Shamima and her husband? I think you are one of those who complains that Begum comes across as not repentant enough yet if her husband says he is repentant (ie disillusioned just in case you get stroppy again over me misquoting you!) then you complain about that too. It really does confirm that you don't believe in innocence til proven guilty doesn't it?
PS I'm not American so I don't "Go figure"
I listened to her husbands interview. He does not see a problem in marrying a 15 year old as apparently it was her choice. He does not seem to be the dimmest character so I will assume that he knows that this is both illegal in the UK and Holland and there is good reasons for these laws. In fact the legal age is 18 in Holland unless you can get the consent of the minister of justice and the parents which I can't imagine is common. Now if we look at the Yasidi sex slaves then around 12 seems OK from a ISIS point of view for a bride which is basically religious supported paedophilia.
He does not see a problem with joining a terrorist organisation and killing people presumably regarded as infidels as even the dumbest moron would realise that is what joining ISIS would entail. He appears to have taken part or witnessed a stoning of a woman accused of infidelity. But the good news is they stopped when she ran away. Good to see there is some honour in the practice of stoning. He then only seems to have a problem with this when ISIS apparently locked him up and tortured him. Only then does he realise he has taken for granted the freedoms of a western culture. If I was a prisoner of the Syrian forces I would be saying all this stuff to try to get me off whatever penalties the Syrian authorities are willing to dish out and maximise my chances of returning to Holland. Self interest is very much running in this case. Have you ever considered that he might be lying about ISIS locking him up to gain a bit more sympathy.
I have corrected your misrepresentation of my use of human on two occasions but yet you are still pushing a racist agenda. Its not racist to expect western citizens to comply with norms of western society whether in their home western culture or abroad its just common sense. He might wish for his family life to be returned but holding him in Syria with Holland doing very little to assist his return suits all western governments as a warning to all those who think that leaving your home country to join a terrorist organisation is a good idea. Both he and his illegal wife can be the poster peeps of consequence. This for all the moral hand ringing on here is worth something even if people cannot admit it.
A well reasoned and cogent assessment of the situation that 99.9% of western civilians would agree with in the most part. Unfortunately John you are arguing with the 0.1% who don't see it that way and they all ride carbon or titanium road bikes and have degrees in sociology and politics. They are always right, you should know that.
Don't waste your time or energy trying to fight your corner. You'll get accused of being narrow minded, right wing and racist as I have constantly found out.
At least you haven't had text altered and requoted.
Just make your point known and move on. Comedy gold. Thanks for that, Goo.
If he wanted that section in bold he would have done it himself. On his behalf I demand an apology by 6pm or he will be forced to tell somebody.
SurreyCommie.
Just read your comment. I'm laughing so much the tears are rolling down my legs.
Chapeau to the funniest man in the home counties.
you should get that chippiness seen to it seems to have spread from your previous/current/future boss and brother in law to the entire home counties.
commie??? in this day and age there really is no excuse for not looking up and understanding what words mean0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.
Get a grip, Begum has left the refugee camp to destination currently unknown.
its not as easy as wandering over to Southern Europe as you make it sound, the internet thing is a problem where ever these people are and as for revokation of citizenship for the several hundred terrorists thats not an option because its against the law.
If you're going to make asinine comments like "have the balls not to run away when someone challenges you" it might be better if you did challenge. Of course if youre going to bang on about the law and then conveniently ignore the laws that you dont like or like others here start quoting what a back bench politicians views are as some kind of trump card then really there isnt much point discussing this with you. Just read the guardian, the socialist worker or whatever work of fiction chakrabati has produced most recently.
Are we building up to another flounce here? Begum left one camp and moved to another. You started off saying you wish her a painful death, then suggesting that the Syrian authorities should deal with her even though that part of the country is under SDF control. Then you started suggesting killing her with a drone strike. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant, all the while dodging any questions. If a 15year old school kid can get to Syria without a valid passport do you really think it's that difficult to get back to Europe. Do you think pretending people like Begum are someone else's problem makes us safer? I'd put a lot more faith in the concrete security barriers I ride between most mornings than a Home Secretary showboating to his party membership.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don't think anyone is ignoring laws they disagree with, just debating the merits of the HS trying to use that particular law to arguably please hardliners, when the alternative is a perfectly adequate and robust legal system which will *arguably have better consequences0
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rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.
Get a grip, Begum has left the refugee camp to destination currently unknown.
its not as easy as wandering over to Southern Europe as you make it sound, the internet thing is a problem where ever these people are and as for revokation of citizenship for the several hundred terrorists thats not an option because its against the law.
If you're going to make asinine comments like "have the balls not to run away when someone challenges you" it might be better if you did challenge. Of course if youre going to bang on about the law and then conveniently ignore the laws that you dont like or like others here start quoting what a back bench politicians views are as some kind of trump card then really there isnt much point discussing this with you. Just read the guardian, the socialist worker or whatever work of fiction chakrabati has produced most recently.
Are we building up to another flounce here? Begum left one camp and moved to another. You started off saying you wish her a painful death, then suggesting that the Syrian authorities should deal with her even though that part of the country is under SDF control. Then you started suggesting killing her with a drone strike. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant, all the while dodging any questions. If a 15year old school kid can get to Syria without a valid passport do you really think it's that difficult to get back to Europe. Do you think pretending people like Begum are someone else's problem makes us safer? I'd put a lot more faith in the concrete security barriers I ride between most mornings than a Home Secretary showboating to his party membership.
Theres no flouncing here, my position hasnt changed, I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways, so whilst your mincing through concrete barriers you might like to consider that show boating or not, id rather have a robust legal approach to security taken than embracing terrorists which the labour party leadership has done for decades.0 -
So, do you want her shot with a big gun or are you happy with a robust legal approach? If you're happy with a robust legal approach are you not content that our anti terrorism laws are adequate and therefore she could be tried fairly in the UK if she were to arrive? I'm not really sure where all the angst has come from in this thread but then I am apparently some sort of terrorist sympathising, socialist...0
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Rick Chasey wrote:So what about my position of using the existing U.K. judiciary system (were she to return to the U.K.) doesn’t appeal to you?
Yes it does. More for the fact that if these people are stateless, we create a totally disenfranchised and dangerous group.Pinno wrote:The baby should be repatriated back to the UK. The mother should face a trial (somewhere) and serve a sentence (somewhere).Rick Chasey wrote:(Though a small suggestion - suggest you don’t go down the ‘evolutionary’ argument route...)
Wrong can of worms. I'm talking about moral evolution, not genetic. Our ideas of equality and fairness is constantly evolving.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.
Get a grip, Begum has left the refugee camp to destination currently unknown.
its not as easy as wandering over to Southern Europe as you make it sound, the internet thing is a problem where ever these people are and as for revokation of citizenship for the several hundred terrorists thats not an option because its against the law.
If you're going to make asinine comments like "have the balls not to run away when someone challenges you" it might be better if you did challenge. Of course if youre going to bang on about the law and then conveniently ignore the laws that you dont like or like others here start quoting what a back bench politicians views are as some kind of trump card then really there isnt much point discussing this with you. Just read the guardian, the socialist worker or whatever work of fiction chakrabati has produced most recently.
Are we building up to another flounce here? Begum left one camp and moved to another. You started off saying you wish her a painful death, then suggesting that the Syrian authorities should deal with her even though that part of the country is under SDF control. Then you started suggesting killing her with a drone strike. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant, all the while dodging any questions. If a 15year old school kid can get to Syria without a valid passport do you really think it's that difficult to get back to Europe. Do you think pretending people like Begum are someone else's problem makes us safer? I'd put a lot more faith in the concrete security barriers I ride between most mornings than a Home Secretary showboating to his party membership.
Theres no flouncing here, my position hasnt changed, I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways, so whilst your mincing through concrete barriers you might like to consider that show boating or not, id rather have a robust legal approach to security taken than embracing terrorists which the labour party leadership has done for decades.
Darling, I can't mince when I'm riding. Only when I'm walking. I'm on foot today though, so...You seem to think us "London set" are isolated from all of this, but maybe we've seen more than out in the sticks what with the 2005 attacks, the Lee Rigby murder, the two bridge attacks and a couple of failed bombs on the tube. Anyway, which is it: the robust legal approach or killing her?
No idea what the Labour leadership has to do with anything. Do you have me down as a Labour supporter?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:rjsterry wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...
No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.
ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that
Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.
I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.
There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.
It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.
At least if you are going to put forward your 'real world' solutions, have the balls to not run away from them the first time someone challenges you.
Begum is living in a refugee camp along with all the other like minded women and their children that the SDF allowed out of Baghuz (what a bunch of liberal wets).What's to stop any of them just walking out of Syria and pitching up in Southern Europe? Or setting up somewhere with an Internet connection to encourage more Britons to follow her example? I mean the SDF are opposed to Assad and are only tolerated because they share a common enemy and are backed by the US. Once they've finished their job in Baghuz they'll be next on Assad's list and who knows what will happen to the actual IS fighters that they are holding. I doubt there will be an orderly handover.
Supposing Javid successfully revokes the citizenship of all the several hundred (ex)Britons in Syria and elsewhere - do you really think that makes us safer? It sounds more like putting our fingers in our ears and hoping we'll get away with it.
Get a grip, Begum has left the refugee camp to destination currently unknown.
its not as easy as wandering over to Southern Europe as you make it sound, the internet thing is a problem where ever these people are and as for revokation of citizenship for the several hundred terrorists thats not an option because its against the law.
If you're going to make asinine comments like "have the balls not to run away when someone challenges you" it might be better if you did challenge. Of course if youre going to bang on about the law and then conveniently ignore the laws that you dont like or like others here start quoting what a back bench politicians views are as some kind of trump card then really there isnt much point discussing this with you. Just read the guardian, the socialist worker or whatever work of fiction chakrabati has produced most recently.
Are we building up to another flounce here? Begum left one camp and moved to another. You started off saying you wish her a painful death, then suggesting that the Syrian authorities should deal with her even though that part of the country is under SDF control. Then you started suggesting killing her with a drone strike. Now you're saying that isn't what you meant, all the while dodging any questions. If a 15year old school kid can get to Syria without a valid passport do you really think it's that difficult to get back to Europe. Do you think pretending people like Begum are someone else's problem makes us safer? I'd put a lot more faith in the concrete security barriers I ride between most mornings than a Home Secretary showboating to his party membership.
Theres no flouncing here, my position hasnt changed, I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways, so whilst your mincing through concrete barriers you might like to consider that show boating or not, id rather have a robust legal approach to security taken than embracing terrorists which the labour party leadership has done for decades.
Darling, I can't mince when I'm riding. Only when I'm walking. I'm on foot today though, so...You seem to think us "London set" are isolated from all of this, but maybe we've seen more than out in the sticks what with the 2005 attacks, the Lee Rigby murder, the two bridge attacks and a couple of failed bombs on the tube. Anyway, which is it: the robust legal approach or killing her?
No idea what the Labour leadership has to do with anything. Do you have me down as a Labour supporter?
thats twice youve answered me, are you about to flounce off? I have you down as a bit of a wet, im not interested in your political affiliations.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:Theres no flouncing here, my position hasnt changed, I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways, so whilst your mincing through concrete barriers you might like to consider that show boating or not, id rather have a robust legal approach to security taken than embracing terrorists which the labour party leadership has done for decades.
I really can't understand why you wish the death of a person who, at the time of taking the step away from western culture, was not yet an adult and could/was easily manipulated. And this is without trial or evidence that she has done anything more than travel under a false passport to a land which was under the control of a terrorist group.
Perhaps we should terminate all children over 10 years old (the age of criminal responsibility in the UK) who appear to have handled class A drugs. We won't bother with a trial either ... costs too much money.
ISIS are (or were) converting/radicalising adults - through faith and belief that western culture is corrupt.
Well - western culture does have a lot of corruption - there's a lot to be said for living a simpler life - western culture has a lot of greed and anything other than growth is wrong.... ok - there's a lot of good going on in western culture too, but it's not hard to point out the "corruption". So that's a major part of conversion sorted.
How easy then, to convert a minor - promising a better world for everyone - our politicians do this - bring the youth into the party, mold them into their way of thinking - heck, parents do this too - you bring up a child to your morals and with your beliefs, most eventually let them make their own way, but some don't...
It's not that long ago that Christians were off conquering the world - converting everyone to Christianity - or trying to. There are still missionaries of various sects that continue to do this - in the belief that they are right.
Muslim faith is younger than Christian - so is it a surprise that there are certain sects that take it to the extreme?
I've said it before and I'll say it again - religion is all about control of the population.
So why be so aggressive against a child who has had her head turned without first trying to turn it back again? Is human life that worthless?0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways,.
This is the ISIS way of justice. Not the UK's.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:Theres no flouncing here, my position hasnt changed, I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways,
ffs...0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:thats twice youve answered me, are you about to flounce off? I have you down as a bit of a wet, im not interested in your political affiliations.
Never mind what you have me down as, which is it? Robust due process or summary execution?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:I'm happy for her painful death to arrive anyone of a number of ways.
I think, far from being wholly opposed to them, your views on how to deal with someone who has different social and political opinions to you apparently show you have more in common with ISIS than most of usWilier Izoard XP0
