Wife of ISIS fighter wants to return to the UK

Alejandrosdog

Shirley Basso wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What have you been smoking?

you dont believe she went to join a proscribed terrorist organisation?

you dont believe she justified the bombing of the Manchester Arena?

you dont believe she would cost a lot of money to support

you dont believe that ISIS want a global caliphate?

I sometimes dont get people on here, I can only assume theyre trolling.

Has she had citizenship revoked?

It doesn't matter what we think or believe. Justice isn't decided by the mob which is why it works, because typically the most shouty are often the most wrong.

has she not had it revoked? Seems she can be a bangladeshi and go and live with her dad but neither he nor Bangladesh want her either, perhaps she could claim the right to a family life and go and live with her husband but thats her problem.

As for justice and the mob, it seems that liberal handwringing and pressure group hounding do shapoe what happens. It matters more than ever what we think and believe or else were just units of productivity or cost.

Alejandrosdog

rjsterry wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Again, everyone is obsessing over one teenager without the nous to present a more sympathetic face when interviewed by Sky News. The idea that she is some significant figure in all of this is laughable. She's just one idiot out of tens of thousands that left Europe and the idea that they can all be dealt with by Syria - which isn't even in control of itself - is ridiculous and dangerous. Thinking they can be detained in Syria is like expecting a sieve to hold water. Those that don't die in Baghuz are far more likely to find their way out of Syria and back to Europe, than anywhere else. And then they will make themselves our problem.

Exactly, but one less is good news

By just leaving her there she's not one less. She's one more we've lost track of. She didn't need her passport to get to Syria, I doubt the lack of one would stop her if she tried to get back with malign intent.

Well I'm all for drone strikes on those terrorists that have had their passports revoked. I believe Mohammed Sakr went to find the prophet in just such an exercise.

rjsterry

You are suggesting bombing a refugee camp - excellent ready-made propaganda for IS et al and good use of their tactics. Given the cost of drone strikes, I think they tend to save these for significant leaders, not idiot teenagers. Not really practical for all 42,000 is it, especially the ones already back home.

slowbike

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

What have you been smoking?

you dont believe she went to join a proscribed terrorist organisation?

you dont believe she justified the bombing of the Manchester Arena?

you dont believe she would cost a lot of money to support

you dont believe that ISIS want a global caliphate?

I sometimes dont get people on here, I can only assume theyre trolling.

Yes she did
No idea
If she managed to return to the UK and the authorities caught her and prosecuted her - then yes
Yes, they want to control everything, but then so did lots of other countries/organisations/terrorists

Just ignoring the other bits and looking at the cost - which is what most people seem to be complaining about.

IF she managed to return to the EU and the authorities caught her then she would be investigated and potentially prosecuted - although quite what she'd be found guilty of I don't know - I'm not suggesting she hasn't done anything wrong - but proving that she's broken the law is a different matter. Quite interesting from a legal point of view too - UK Laws apply to UK land do they not? When you're abroad you have to abide by the laws of that land - so potentially the couple getting married hasn't broken any law as they didn't do so in the UK or Holland - of course, both countries could refuse to acknowledge the marriage, but that's a bit arbitrary as they could just get married again ... anyway ... yes, any cost of processing her and her child would be borne by the tax payer, but it's such an insignificant amount overall it's not worth considering. If you're going to start quibbling about someone like her, then why not quibble more about the petty criminals that cause so much work for our police and court systems - deport a few of those to another country and we'll be cost neutral....

Fortunately, you cannot be locked up for your beliefs (however warped) in this country - only your actions.

Alejandrosdog

and yet we see begums lawyer claiming that her client will need enhanced mental health support if she returns, (yet more cost and perversely suppport thats not readily available to people who need it that havent bombed innocent children.

As for petty criminals, its well known that a small percentage of repeat offending toerags and their offspring draw in vast amounts of police, socail care, and court resources, in addition to the damage they do to the places they live. I would happily see the introduction of a less tolerant less"understanding" approach.

slowbike

Alejandrosdog wrote:

and yet we see begums lawyer claiming that her client will need enhanced mental health support if she returns, (yet more cost and perversely suppport thats not readily available to people who need it that havent bombed innocent children.

TBH - I haven't been following all the garbage ... I mean "Story" ... but it's no surprise... what she ends up getting (should she return) could be somewhat different to what she/her lawyer wants ...

Alejandrosdog wrote:

As for petty criminals, its well known that a small percentage of repeat offending toerags and their offspring draw in vast amounts of police, socail care, and court resources, in addition to the damage they do to the places they live. I would happily see the introduction of a less tolerant less"understanding" approach.

ok then - what's your "less tolerant" approach going to entail? I understood that Prison was meant as rehabilitation - not retribution ... hence why we're not locking people up so much (or stoning them) ...

rick_chasey

So Vino basically wants the U.K. justice system to be more like ISIS’ because he doesn’t like how ISIS runs its society.


Riiiight

Alejandrosdog

my less tolerant approach would be make the deterrent and the rehabilitation more effective. Make burgulary an offence with a jail term. That will free loads of resource in an instant. OK the toe rags will be inside but the army of people arresting and processing junkies on an almost daily basis only for some liberal thinking magistrate to suggest a voluntary drug rehabilitation and send them out to do it again will be able to concentrate on other issues.

the blight of burgulary will be addressed. Its not just the toerags rights but those of the people whose homes are violated that must be balanced.

three strikes and life.

Alejandrosdog

Class A drugs distribution or supply mandatory life.

Alejandrosdog

Rick Chasey wrote:

So Vino basically wants the U.K. justice system to be more like ISIS’ because he doesn’t like how ISIS runs its society.


Riiiight

i know it can sometimes be difficult to cope in the face of alternative proposals and ideas but calling names and scorn pouring without offering an alternative is a tad immature even for bike radars deep thinkers.

rick_chasey

If you think I haven’t offered an alternative to your suggestion then I pity your verbal reasoning.

Alejandrosdog

Rick Chasey wrote:

If you think I haven’t offered an alternative to your suggestion then I pity your verbal reasoning.

Pity or otherwise, I suggested that more effective rehabilitation and deterrent would be positive for society, that victims of crime would be fewer and that justice would be seen to be done.

This is clearly something you dont agree with, fair enough. Your response was to equate my proposal with ISIS.

Have I missed something?

rick_chasey

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

If you think I haven’t offered an alternative to your suggestion then I pity your verbal reasoning.

Pity or otherwise, I suggested that more effective rehabilitation and deterrent would be positive for society, that victims of crime would be fewer and that justice would be seen to be done.

This is clearly something you dont agree with, fair enough. Your response was to equate my proposal with ISIS.

Have I missed something?

Not equate.

Nearer than the current system.

Alejandrosdog

Rick Chasey wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

If you think I haven’t offered an alternative to your suggestion then I pity your verbal reasoning.

Pity or otherwise, I suggested that more effective rehabilitation and deterrent would be positive for society, that victims of crime would be fewer and that justice would be seen to be done.

This is clearly something you dont agree with, fair enough. Your response was to equate my proposal with ISIS.

Have I missed something?

Not equate.

Nearer than the current system.

Ah so effective rehabilitation and deterrent is moving towards an ISIS approach. As far as Im aware there is very little rehabilitation possible once youve thrown someone from a roof, beheaded them or tortured or stoned them to death

Alejandrosdog

And on that bombshell, I shall go and do some exercise.

rjsterry

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Class A drugs distribution or supply mandatory life.

Much as I'm enjoying the Judge Jeffreys does the Express comments section, I thought you wanted to reduce the load on the justice system. All these extra lifers are going to clog up the system a bit. The main reason for non-custodial sentences is because they are cheaper, not because they make judges feel warm and fuzzy. Or do you actually believe in the deterrent myth? I mean the threat of having your citizenship removed didn't deter a single one of the people who left Europe to join IS or similar.

Alejandrosdog

rjsterry wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Class A drugs distribution or supply mandatory life.

Much as I'm enjoying the Judge Jeffreys does the Express comments section, I thought you wanted to reduce the load on the justice system. All these extra lifers are going to clog up the system a bit. The main reason for non-custodial sentences is because they are cheaper, not because they make judges feel warm and fuzzy. Or do you actually believe in the deterrent myth? I mean the threat of having your citizenship removed didn't deter a single one of the people who left Europe to join IS or similar.

Its not a deterrent if it doesn't happen and it's not seen to happen.

There is some interesting work being done viewing the whole cost issue holistically. Taken in the round Prison is expensive but can be cost effective. Thats without taking into account the measurable cost of the trouble and damage that some of these people do whilst were avoiding custodial sentences. Of course the cost of those crimes is frequently met by the victims and their insurers. In fact we all pay for them through lowered quality of life and increased premiums etc

pinno

Legalise the lot I say.
Pay the Taliban for 2nd hand Kalashnikov's and opium.
Tax Opium sales.
Make pure Cocaine and sell it for max profit but with health warnings and caveats.
Get rid of the network of illegal sex workers, drug and alcohol sellers, people smugglers.

It costs the state £47k a year to dispense methodone to 1 person and it costs the Govt. £110k per year, per pharmacy to dispense the bloody stuff.
French addicts are off Heroin in 3 weeks using medicinal Morphine.
I know and have worked with guys who have been on 'scripts' for years and they say it works! Bollox does it.

Win/win/win.

rjsterry

They used to have public hangings for theft: people still nicked stuff. What you describe sounds a lot like the US: still plenty of crime there. Teenagers in this country know that they will get a life sentence for stabbing someone to death and yet it keeps happening. Deterrence doesn't work because nobody thinks they will be caught or don't care if they are.

rick_chasey

So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...

mr_goo

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Do tell me where I have "repeatedly misquoted your words". And in what way. Where have I claimed to have been misquoted? Your words are your words and I have just used the quote button; they condemn you without any input from myself. I was talking about misinterpretation which is an entirely different thing but if you can't tell the difference between the two then there's really no hope is there?

Incidentally, what words are you happy with in the circumstances of Shamima and her husband? I think you are one of those who complains that Begum comes across as not repentant enough yet if her husband says he is repentant (ie disillusioned just in case you get stroppy again over me misquoting you!) then you complain about that too. It really does confirm that you don't believe in innocence til proven guilty doesn't it?

PS I'm not American so I don't "Go figure"

I listened to her husbands interview. He does not see a problem in marrying a 15 year old as apparently it was her choice. He does not seem to be the dimmest character so I will assume that he knows that this is both illegal in the UK and Holland and there is good reasons for these laws. In fact the legal age is 18 in Holland unless you can get the consent of the minister of justice and the parents which I can't imagine is common. Now if we look at the Yasidi sex slaves then around 12 seems OK from a ISIS point of view for a bride which is basically religious supported paedophilia.

He does not see a problem with joining a terrorist organisation and killing people presumably regarded as infidels as even the dumbest moron would realise that is what joining ISIS would entail. He appears to have taken part or witnessed a stoning of a woman accused of infidelity. But the good news is they stopped when she ran away. Good to see there is some honour in the practice of stoning. He then only seems to have a problem with this when ISIS apparently locked him up and tortured him. Only then does he realise he has taken for granted the freedoms of a western culture. If I was a prisoner of the Syrian forces I would be saying all this stuff to try to get me off whatever penalties the Syrian authorities are willing to dish out and maximise my chances of returning to Holland. Self interest is very much running in this case. Have you ever considered that he might be lying about ISIS locking him up to gain a bit more sympathy.

I have corrected your misrepresentation of my use of human on two occasions but yet you are still pushing a racist agenda. Its not racist to expect western citizens to comply with norms of western society whether in their home western culture or abroad its just common sense. He might wish for his family life to be returned but holding him in Syria with Holland doing very little to assist his return suits all western governments as a warning to all those who think that leaving your home country to join a terrorist organisation is a good idea. Both he and his illegal wife can be the poster peeps of consequence. This for all the moral hand ringing on here is worth something even if people cannot admit it.

A well reasoned and cogent assessment of the situation that 99.9% of western civilians would agree with in the most part. Unfortunately John you are arguing with the 0.1% who don't see it that way and they all ride carbon or titanium road bikes and have degrees in sociology and politics. They are always right, you should know that.
Don't waste your time or energy trying to fight your corner. You'll get accused of being narrow minded, right wing and racist as I have constantly found out.
At least you haven't had text altered and requoted.
Just make your point known and move on.

Comedy gold. Thanks for that, Goo.

If he wanted that section in bold he would have done it himself. On his behalf I demand an apology by 6pm or he will be forced to tell somebody.

SurreyCommie.
Just read your comment. I'm laughing so much the tears are rolling down my legs.
Chapeau to the funniest man in the home counties.

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Do tell me where I have "repeatedly misquoted your words". And in what way. Where have I claimed to have been misquoted? Your words are your words and I have just used the quote button; they condemn you without any input from myself. I was talking about misinterpretation which is an entirely different thing but if you can't tell the difference between the two then there's really no hope is there?

Incidentally, what words are you happy with in the circumstances of Shamima and her husband? I think you are one of those who complains that Begum comes across as not repentant enough yet if her husband says he is repentant (ie disillusioned just in case you get stroppy again over me misquoting you!) then you complain about that too. It really does confirm that you don't believe in innocence til proven guilty doesn't it?

PS I'm not American so I don't "Go figure"

I listened to her husbands interview. He does not see a problem in marrying a 15 year old as apparently it was her choice. He does not seem to be the dimmest character so I will assume that he knows that this is both illegal in the UK and Holland and there is good reasons for these laws. In fact the legal age is 18 in Holland unless you can get the consent of the minister of justice and the parents which I can't imagine is common. Now if we look at the Yasidi sex slaves then around 12 seems OK from a ISIS point of view for a bride which is basically religious supported paedophilia.

He does not see a problem with joining a terrorist organisation and killing people presumably regarded as infidels as even the dumbest moron would realise that is what joining ISIS would entail. He appears to have taken part or witnessed a stoning of a woman accused of infidelity. But the good news is they stopped when she ran away. Good to see there is some honour in the practice of stoning. He then only seems to have a problem with this when ISIS apparently locked him up and tortured him. Only then does he realise he has taken for granted the freedoms of a western culture. If I was a prisoner of the Syrian forces I would be saying all this stuff to try to get me off whatever penalties the Syrian authorities are willing to dish out and maximise my chances of returning to Holland. Self interest is very much running in this case. Have you ever considered that he might be lying about ISIS locking him up to gain a bit more sympathy.

I have corrected your misrepresentation of my use of human on two occasions but yet you are still pushing a racist agenda. Its not racist to expect western citizens to comply with norms of western society whether in their home western culture or abroad its just common sense. He might wish for his family life to be returned but holding him in Syria with Holland doing very little to assist his return suits all western governments as a warning to all those who think that leaving your home country to join a terrorist organisation is a good idea. Both he and his illegal wife can be the poster peeps of consequence. This for all the moral hand ringing on here is worth something even if people cannot admit it.

A well reasoned and cogent assessment of the situation that 99.9% of western civilians would agree with in the most part. Unfortunately John you are arguing with the 0.1% who don't see it that way and they all ride carbon or titanium road bikes and have degrees in sociology and politics. They are always right, you should know that.
Don't waste your time or energy trying to fight your corner. You'll get accused of being narrow minded, right wing and racist as I have constantly found out.
At least you haven't had text altered and requoted.
Just make your point known and move on.

Comedy gold. Thanks for that, Goo.

If he wanted that section in bold he would have done it himself. On his behalf I demand an apology by 6pm or he will be forced to tell somebody.

SurreyCommie.
Just read your comment. I'm laughing so much the tears are rolling down my legs.
Chapeau to the funniest man in the home counties.

Well your post above me laugh Goo

Reminded me of this little bit of satire that I've posted on here before:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/11/17/iraqi-born-writer-brutally-satirizes-liberals-who-refuse-to-blame-islamic-terrorists-for-their-atrocities

Alejandrosdog

Rick Chasey wrote:

So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...

No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.

ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

pinno

Alejandrosdog wrote:

...did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

Yep, seems that way.

ISIS must be the only terrorist group where I can find no justified explanation for their actions. They are evil. primitive and need to be wiped out.
I was stunned by the comments of ISIS women leaving Syria.
How on earth can they put their children in that predicament? Do they honestly believe that an extremist existence is a proper life for their progeny? I am astounded by their acceptance of 12 year old's becoming bride's and being totally subservient to men, including the practice of FGM. If they want to live in an ISIS state, that's what they are signing their children up for.
What sort of morality or humanity is that? It's so perversely skewed.
One woman was ranting about how her child was dying and she needed medical help and was simultaneously endorsing Islamic state.
Keeping their women thick and suppressed suits the menfolk who demand total subservience from them and yet the women happily sign up to and spout the virtues of ISIS.

There is a part of me that wishes their children to be removed and adopted and for the parents to be tried, imprisoned and even, executed for carrying such horrible beliefs and being involved in beheadings and stonings.

What benefit to the evolution of mankind/humanity/morality do they have? Will ever have? What hatred do they breed and indoctrinate in their children? Is there anything remotely positive about ISIS?

I can understand the Palestinian point of view. I can understand the Israeli point of view. I can also understand both the Catholic and Protestant standing in NI previously. Though I cannot justify their actions etc
Whereas, ISIS present a way of life that has no place on this planet.

rjsterry

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...

No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.

ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.

Ben6899

Mr Goo wrote:

A well reasoned and cogent assessment of the situation that 99.9% of western civilians would agree with in the most part. Unfortunately John you are arguing with the 0.1% who don't see it that way and they all ride carbon or titanium road bikes and have degrees in sociology and politics. They are always right, you should know that.

Don't forget the custom Columbus and Reynolds offerings. And some of us have professional qualifications as well.

We are always right though.

rick_chasey

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...

No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.

ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

Alejandrosdog wrote:

I hope she dies in great pain, frightened and alone next to the rotting corpse of her husband.
.

All I’m doing is advocating sticking to the rules based approach that sets places like the U.K. apart from places like ISIS.

Nothing to do with white men and history and everything to maintain the integrity of the U.K. justice system. No exceptions.

Not an apologist. Just using the existing framework of justice.

I don’t know why you lot all find that so difficult to understand.

rick_chasey

Pinno wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

...did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

Yep, seems that way.

ISIS must be the only terrorist group where I can find no justified explanation for their actions. They are evil. primitive and need to be wiped out.
I was stunned by the comments of ISIS women leaving Syria.
How on earth can they put their children in that predicament? Do they honestly believe that an extremist existence is a proper life for their progeny? I am astounded by their acceptance of 12 year old's becoming bride's and being totally subservient to men, including the practice of FGM. If they want to live in an ISIS state, that's what they are signing their children up for.
What sort of morality or humanity is that? It's so perversely skewed.
One woman was ranting about how her child was dying and she needed medical help and was simultaneously endorsing Islamic state.
Keeping their women thick and suppressed suits the menfolk who demand total subservience from them and yet the women happily sign up to and spout the virtues of ISIS.

There is a part of me that wishes their children to be removed and adopted and for the parents to be tried, imprisoned and even, executed for carrying such horrible beliefs and being involved in beheadings and stonings.

What benefit to the evolution of mankind/humanity/morality do they have? Will ever have? What hatred do they breed and indoctrinate in their children? Is there anything remotely positive about ISIS?

I can understand the Palestinian point of view. I can understand the Israeli point of view. I can also understand both the Catholic and Protestant standing in NI previously. Though I cannot justify their actions etc
Whereas, ISIS present a way of life that has no place on this planet.

So what about my position of using the existing U.K. judiciary system (were she to return to the U.K.) doesn’t appeal to you?

(Though a small suggestion - suggest you don’t go down the ‘evolutionary’ argument route...)

robert88

It's the nature of the internet that the longer an issue is debated, the further apart the two sides become and the less likely it is that common ground will appear? Seems to me, anyway..

Alejandrosdog

rjsterry wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So you’re aligned in principal of the ISIS *deterrant* justice system, just not the execution, so to speak...

No of course not, but i do have a balanced view, whereas youre the sort of person that bangs on about rights and al the rest and gets beaten up by taxi drivers. Its reflected in your fearful apologetic approach to life.

ISIS want to kill you and your way of life. wake up and smell the coffee Rick. did you study a revisionary version of history where the white man was the aggressor and terrorism the result of western imperial practices? Because the world is far more nuanced than that

Funny how you want to talk about nuance now. Earlier it was all drone strikes on refugee camps and 'angin's too good fer'em.

I didn't advocate drone strikes on refugee camps, that was the absurd reaction from smug know it alls to my suggestion that taking out terrorists with drones was a positive thing. only a moron would bomb refugee camps. Don't be a moron.

There are a lot of the london set here that think they're intellectually superior; from what i can see they're just baying know italls that wouldn't have the balls or the strength of personality required to deal with a real life issue should it present itself.

It's also noticeable that the same group of people appear to have no real life experience of what life is like in other parts of the world. Perhaps then it is not surprising that their views are informed by the right on, left wing and liberal bias of their teachers.